What were they saying......

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jeffyen
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#21 Post by jeffyen » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:49 am

I have my doubts as to the authenticity of the script. According to interviews, the kiss wasn't even scripted.

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doubts as to the authenticity

#22 Post by johnmonkey_2_lazy_2_login » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:31 pm

jeffyen wrote:I have my doubts as to the authenticity of the script. According to interviews, the kiss wasn't even scripted.
Good point : I still haven't looked it over. Maybe someone who has the limited edition book, which has at least parts of the script, could compare and give us a report.

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Re: LIT Script

#23 Post by phillygalinutah » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:01 pm

This link is more direct:

http://www.script-o-rama.com/snazzy/dircut.html

It's a draft LIT; it lists the source as TDS (???), but when clicking it, it pulls up the PDF Sep 2, 2002 script of LIT.

I haven't read or printed it out yet.
I recall, though, Sofia, saying that she didn't like the way the ending scene between Bill and Scarlett was "playing out", and that she verbally told Bill to "ad-lib" it and kiss Scarlett (which she wouldn't be expecting).

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Oops! One More Thing!

#24 Post by phillygalinutah » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:09 pm

If you're a fan of Rushmore or Royal Tenebaums (both of which Bill 8) costarred in), this same URL has scripts from these films too.

http://www.script-o-rama.com/snazzy/dircut.html

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#25 Post by jeffyen » Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:17 pm

TDS stands for dailyscript.com

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the whisper

#26 Post by Guest » Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:43 pm

I only discovered this film a short while ago, and it is my new favorite film. I think Bill Murray is fabulous in it, and I just love everything about it.

Regarding the whisper at the end, it's obvious that we aren't supposed to be able to tell what is said, but nosey person that I am, I've listened to scads of mp3 and wav files, doctored and undoctored, trying to figure out what Bob says to Charlotte. The only think I can make out at all is the very end, where Bob seems to say, "...and tell him that you love him, okay?"

I realize this is not the popular interpretation of the whisper, as people seem to want our two heroes to somehow get together in the future. However, I think it fits perfectly with the story, as Bob has already decided that going to his daughter's dance recital is more important than staying in Japan and continuing this romantic interlude.

I think there are some truly insightful, brilliant, and most of all REAL aspects to this film - one tends to think that during a "romance," all that other stuff of real life (i.e. the spouse, the kids, etc.) just fade into the background so that the new "happy couple" can consummate their relationship and go on and live happily ever after. But the reality of it is that there is no "happily ever after," because there still exist those other relationships and commitments. Bob's wife makes him nuts, but he keeps on trying to communicate with her, and he adores his kids.

I think it's telling that Charlotte is the one who starts feeling possessive of Bob. She has 2 years invested in her life with her husband. He has over 20 years invested, and then there are the kids. I had the impression that Charlotte believed or at least hoped that she and Bob would get together, but for him the price was simply too high. That is why I think in the end Bob shows her how much he does care for her in giving her that kiss, but at the same time, he does let her go, and he goes back to his own life with no regrets. Real life isn't a fairytale, and the princess doesn't necessarily have to run off with her prince charming in order for there to be a happy ending.

jeanie

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Re: the whisper

#27 Post by jm » Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:26 pm

"[quote:bfc4acd584="Jeanie"]I only discovered this film a short while ago, and it is my new favorite film. I think Bill Murray is fabulous in it, and I just love everything about it...[/quote:bfc4acd584]

That was excellent, Jeanie: I loved it. I wrote a bit about the movie myself."
Last edited by jm on Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Whisper

#28 Post by jeaniecflowers » Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:32 am

Thanks for the link, John. I've only seen the movie twice, so you're way ahead of me! I rented it, so it had to be returned, but then I saw it at Target for $10 the other day and nabbed it. I plan to watch it again, but first I have to get it back from my brother!

I was surprised to come across a number of reviews calling the film boring and such, and all I can figure is that people must have gone into the film expecting "Groundhog Day" Bill Murray, or "Caddyshack" Bill Murray. I mean, those movies are great, and great fun, but this is a different type of film. I really enjoyed it, and I think there is a lot of depth to it - some of that depth comes from the writer/director, but now having read the draft, I think Bill Murray is responsible for bringing most of the depth to the role himself. A middle aged man just has a completely different take on life than a 22 year old woman, or a 30-something female screenwriter for that matter (I'm just guessing at Sofia Coppola's age, so hope I'm not too far off!), mid-life crisis or not. I think maybe the average moviegoer watches a film like this expecting something different, especially women. For whatever reason, we want the fairytale ending, even when it's unreasonable. Personally, I was relieved that the relationship was not consummated - that was the point when I decided I liked the movie. Both Charlotte and Bob come out of the experience as changed people, but not in the way some might have expected, I think because Bob realizes how destructive it would have been to himself and to Charlotte for them to have slept together. They both go back to "real life" with the benefit of knowing that they are capable of loving and being loved, and the hope is that they will use that knowledge to improve the relationships they are already in.

Anyway, that's why I think Bob does whisper to Charlotte to tell her husband that she loves him.

Something else I was wondering about - all of the music seems to have been very carefully chosen, so I presume the various film and television clips are very deliberate as well. It's been years since I've watched La Dolce Vida - do you have any thoughts as to the significance of the use of that particular clip during the bedroom scene?

Loved your review, John! Thanks for the link!

jeanie

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Re: The Whisper

#29 Post by phillygalinutah » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:44 pm

John and Jeanie,

I enjoyed reading both of your posts. :D I've watched this beautiful film several times and share your sentiments. It's also been hard for me to convince friends and family to see LIT after they've already heard or read reviews from others who say it's boring or can't or won't allow themselves to be dazzled by Bill Murray in other than a purely comedic role.

I've also felt that Bob and Charlotte's current life perspectives are summarized quite nicely throught the three songs sung by Bob (2) and Charlotte (1).

Bob sings "(What's So Funny ‘bout) Peace, Love, and Understanding." His career is in a wane; the public may recognize him, but they're not exactly sure from where. His personal communications with his wife has become distant. I suspect too that his agent and other industry types don't see him in other interesting roles after being archtyped as an action hero star in younger days. Overall, he's become disconnected from a number of relationships, and is wary that anyone values him just as he is today.

Charlotte singing "Brass in Pocket," is young and unsure of herself after college and is dying for attention and validation that she is special in another's eyes. Her husband sure isn't giving it to her, but Bob, a stranger did, with the eye glances and short conversation quips in the bar. Bob further validates her specialness further by joining Charlotte and her friends and then by sweetly singing with her as she sings the song.

Bob sings Roxy Music's "More Than This," and it seems as much as Bob is enjoying this new, unexpected friendship, he's experienced more in his life, and has a family to consider to make more of this than a short, pleasant connection of two people enjoying each other's company (and shared loneliness).

IRT 'La Dolce Vida' I recall someone posting at the Yankee Racers web site that Sofia was in a panic that Bill wouldn't show for the LIT shoot, and Wes Anderson, who directed Bill in Rushmore and TRT assured her he would keep his word once he said yes. Some reference to the the sweet life was exchanged, and I believe that's why that film clip was included in LIT. I'll check again on that. :)

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#30 Post by Glyphiks » Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:52 am

IN TERMS OF THE WHISPER, I just don't think it matters; within the realm of the movie, it cannot be known. People are inundated on the whole 'What did Bill whisper to Scarlett' question, but I really find that it just doesn't matter, and also believe it to be a superficial speculation (no disrespect at all to the person who created this thread). Bottom line is WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS SAID. PERIOD.

And, in the context of the film, we're not supposed to know...

The film, for me, was very delicately crafted...to know what was whispered would almost destroy that feel...

In addition, LIT, in my opinion, finds its strength in what is "unsaid" and "undone"...Not knowing what was whispered at the end is very consistent with, and appropriate for, the film's mysterious undertone.

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Re: the whisper

#31 Post by Found and Lost » Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:55 am

[quote="Anonymous"]I only discovered this film a short while ago, and it is my new favorite film. I think Bill Murray is fabulous in it, and I just love everything about it.

Regarding the whisper at the end, it's obvious that we aren't supposed to be able to tell what is said, but nosey person that I am, I've listened to scads of mp3 and wav files, doctored and undoctored, trying to figure out what Bob says to Charlotte. The only think I can make out at all is the very end, where Bob seems to say, "...and tell him that you love him, okay?"

I realize this is not the popular interpretation of the whisper, as people seem to want our two heroes to somehow get together in the future. However, I think it fits perfectly with the story, as Bob has already decided that going to his daughter's dance recital is more important than staying in Japan and continuing this romantic interlude.

I think there are some truly insightful, brilliant, and most of all REAL aspects to this film - one tends to think that during a "romance," all that other stuff of real life (i.e. the spouse, the kids, etc.) just fade into the background so that the new "happy couple" can consummate their relationship and go on and live happily ever after. But the reality of it is that there is no "happily ever after," because there still exist those other relationships and commitments. Bob's wife makes him nuts, but he keeps on trying to communicate with her, and he adores his kids.

I think it's telling that Charlotte is the one who starts feeling possessive of Bob. She has 2 years invested in her life with her husband. He has over 20 years invested, and then there are the kids. I had the impression that Charlotte believed or at least hoped that she and Bob would get together, but for him the price was simply too high. That is why I think in the end Bob shows her how much he does care for her in giving her that kiss, but at the same time, he does let her go, and he goes back to his own life with no regrets. Real life isn't a fairytale, and the princess doesn't necessarily have to run off with her prince charming in order for there to be a happy ending.

jeanie[/quote]

I read your wise comment and here is what I want you to ask you, it's important for me so please reply. Assuming they are real people, do you think Bob still loves Charlotte or does he see her just as a memory now? I mean does he think of her every day of his life and misses her badly or has the whole thing faded away for him over the time?

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Re: What Were They Saying...

#32 Post by phillygalinutah » Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:52 pm

You're probably waiting on Jeanie's answer, but if you don't mind, my thoughts are Bob doesn't think about Charlotte for the rest of his life " in a pining way" for the rest of his life.

Do you remember Bob's expression when he returned to the taxi after his last encounter with Charlotte? It was a relieved and wistful expression on his face. Like he realized he was so glad he came to Toyko after all, and that he was happy he was going home.

Really, there were opportunities for Bob and Charlotte to have taken their relationship to a romantic/sexual stage, but they misinterpreted or didn't act on verbal and nonverbal cues from one another. What did strike a chord mostly with me is that both of them had disconnected themselves from sharing their true feelings with their spouses and others close to them, and only the alien enviroment of Toyko pushed them together to feel some familiar connection (in this case, both being Americans and sleepless).

At their last street encounter, Bob was able to express through his hugs, his deep lip kiss (Bob can kiss me too!), and his whisper, and goodbye cheek kiss that their time spent together was indeed special and she made him feel valued for himself - something that inside he hadn't felt in a very long time. Earlier, in the bed scene, Bob did reveal in a lovely way how special his marriage once was when Lydia and he shared their lives with one another and that he still loved his children. I think his whisper to Charlotte was to encourage her not to give up on herself (or her marriage) so easily, and to share her true feelings with her husband.

Bob will have pleasant memories of his time spent with Charlotte. She helped him to see he isn't too old to share his feelings and be valued by others. He showed remarkable restraint not verbally lashing back at Lydia on their phone calls. Who knows? Maybe he'll reach back to regain those personal intimacies he'd lost over the years with his wife. :wink:
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Re: What Were They Saying...

#33 Post by Found and Lost and Found » Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:21 am

[quote="phillygalinutah"]You're probably waiting on Jeanie's answer, but if you don't mind, my thoughts are Bob doesn't think about Charlotte for the rest of his life " in a pining way" for the rest of his life.

Do you remember Bob's expression when he returned to the taxi after his last encounter with Charlotte? It was a relieved and wistful expression on his face. Like he realized he was so glad he came to Toyko after all, and that he was happy he was going home.

Really, there were opportunities for Bob and Charlotte to have taken their relationship to a romantic/sexual stage, but they misinterpreted or didn't act on verbal and nonverbal cues from one another. What did strike a chord mostly with me is that both of them had disconnected themselves from sharing their true feelings with their spouses and others close to them, and only the alien enviroment of Toyko pushed them together to feel some familiar connection (in this case, both being Americans and sleepless).

At their last street encounter, Bob was able to express through his hugs, his deep lip kiss (Bob can kiss me too!), and his whisper, and goodbye cheek kiss that their time spent together was indeed special and she made him feel valued for himself - something that inside he hadn't felt in a very long time. Earlier, in the bed scene, Bob did reveal in a lovely way how special his marriage once was when Lydia and he shared their lives with one another and that he still loved his children. I think his whisper to Charlotte was to encourage her not to give up on herself (or her marriage) so easily, and to share her true feelings with her husband.

Bob will have pleasant memories of his time spent with Charlotte. She helped him to see he isn't too old to share his feelings and be valued by others. He showed remarkable restraint not verbally lashing back at Lydia on their phone calls. Who knows? Maybe he'll reach back to regain those personal intimacies he'd lost over the years with his wife. :wink:[/quote]

Thank you, my friend. I wish you were right because I don't want him to think of her as a woman. I want him to think of her as a friend. Some reviewer wrote that this encounter would somehow help him re-establish his marriage. That could be great!

Everybody's saying it were his children that stopped him from staying with Charlotte. That's right but not all of the truth. I believe the mother of this children is no less important for him although he might not even be aware of it then. Marriage is like that - with rises and falls, and if you've lived with someone for years you already have a strong bond (that you take for granted). It's stronger tham any other "special bonds" no matter how attractive your new passion is. Unfortunately, many men (and women) get to know it only after they have already destroyed their marriages.

In my country, we have a movie made in the end of the 70-s describing a similar situation. An ageing man is married to a woman who can not have children. On a holiday, he meets a younger attractive woman in her 30-s whom he feels great with, life is easy and brighter with her. She wants to get married. He makes up his mind to leave his wife and have a new family with kids. So half of the film he is thinking how to tell his wife that he is leaving. However, he understands that he just cannot leave her and stays with her in the end, and you see that they were and are happy together although he hadn't known it before he met that woman on vacation.

I sometimes want these brothers in arms - Bob abd Charlotte, to have a reunion party, sit down together in a cafe (this time without cigars and vodka - because their heavy drinking and smoking in the movie indicated indifference towards life and even despair) and remember the old days. Sad as it sounds, the mission of this encounter is accomplished and each of them is to bear own cross. Good news is this sadness is neither dark or depressing, it's like Mozart's Concerto 23 which is one of my favourite pieces.

And - there is a mystery behind the creation of the story. I think people feel it. I mean that an impulse was sent by certain real people and it's that impulse that makes the movie so discussible. I wish from my heart to everybody who is obsessed with the movie to finally get rid of it - you will never decipher it. Look at Bob and Charlotte - they chose real life despite it's hard. Living in dreams and spending hours watching someone else's life onscreen again and again is much worse and sometimes even
dangerously addictive.

drago

the first scene

#34 Post by drago » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:42 pm

My english is bad,but i have a question :

The first scene shows the beatiful a** of scarlet, and then bob harris arrives in tokio.he is in a car,and he looks all the buildings,lights, (Am i wright? ) well, in that moment he can see a picture of himself with a whiskey glass in his hand ... my doubt is : that's is the first scene of the film or maybe,just maybe...is the last scene of the film...? why bob harris can see the picture of himself with suntory time,if he just arrives few minutes ago? why? Maybe he arrives for second time,maybe he is coming back to tokio, to found his new love... the beggining is the end,and the end is the beginning[/b]

johnmonkey_notloggedin

Re: the first scene

#35 Post by johnmonkey_notloggedin » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:03 pm

drago wrote:the beggining is the end,and the end is the beginning[/b]
The idea seems to be that he's been there before -- but he seems humorously surprised by what's happening to him throughout, which doesn't quite make sense if he's been there before. So I don't know what answer to give you.

drago

mmm

#36 Post by drago » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:52 pm

Hello, well,like I said : My english is bad,and maybe you don't understand what I try to say :

That scene for me, is the end of the film, he arrives in tokio to found his love : charlotte. He is back in tokio. that's the answer to bob's whisper and the charlotte 's smile.
that's the reason for the picture of himself.
I m from chile, and maybe with the spanish 's subtittles I don't get it wright all dialogues of the film... so, my question is : does bob says in any part of the film that is his second time in tokio? I hope you understand my question, but the words did,do,does , makes me crazy...

My question is because doesn't seems his second time, his face when the japanese people talk,the shower scene,the tv program scene, I don't know... to night Im gonna see it again and tomorrow I'll try to be more specific. he he.

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Re: mmm

#37 Post by jm » Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:38 pm

"If I understand you, you're asking if the start of the film is really the end. That it means that, after the actual end of the movie, Bob and Charlotte met again in Tokyo.

This is a good idea. I don't believe it myself, but I still can like it. I do not believe that they ever got togeher, and I wrote about why I think so here:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/johnmonkey/2277.html

But if you do accept the idea that they agreed to meet again, then your idea is very nice. One might ask why they would choose Tokyo to meet in, but that's the only objection."
Last edited by jm on Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#38 Post by sooner77 » Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:38 pm

I am puzzled by that scene myself. The non-romantic explanation is the billboard photo was taken in the USA for Suntory's use before Bob came to Tokyo. The romantic explanation is Bob is coming back to hook up with Charlotte and the rest of the film is a flashback. I accept it as a valid interpretation, one of many, which is one reason I like the movie so much. There are several continuity errors in LIT (I assume most of them are there because of the time and budget limitations), but that is one doozy of a continuity error if that's all it is.

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#39 Post by jm » Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:43 pm

"[b:efae401358]Jeanie[/b:efae401358] - About your suggestion that Charlotte would be interested in having a relationship with Bob, I would quote Scarlett Johansson to you: [i:efae401358]"But she loves her husband, the husband is -- and it would have ruined everything they had, and, and and and and, and she loves her husband, and she's so cute, and they're just in a bad spot, and there's hope for them, you know? It would have been awful if they had consumated that love for one another. It would have been a different movie, really."[/i:efae401358]

[quote:efae401358="jeanie c flowers"]Personally, I was relieved that the relationship was not consummated - that was the point when I decided I liked the movie.[/quote:efae401358]
The point where I became conscious of having made that decision was when Bob whispered to Charlotte, and I couldn't hear it and I knew that when I got the DVD that I still wouldn't be able to hear it. It was only then that I was reminded that I was watching a movie. In later viewings I appreciated the artistry of it, but that first time I was drawn in completely.

[quote:efae401358="jeanie c flowers"]Anyway, that's why I think Bob does whisper to Charlotte to tell her husband that she loves him.[/quote:efae401358]
But she [u:efae401358]does[/u:efae401358] tell him that. I imagine he bites his lip to stop from telling her "Get a life!" Remember the scene where he comes back late at night and says he's going down to the bar to see Anna, and she says, "Maybe I'll go downstairs with you." (Pause.) He says, "Oh, you wanna come?"

Can't you picture a scene which took place a week or so earlier? "I gotta go to Tokyo for a shoot." Charlotte, "Maybe I'll go to Tokyo with you." (Pause.) "You've been out of college for months! Couldn't you get a golly gosh darn job?!"

[quote:efae401358="jeanie c flowers"]Something else I was wondering about - all of the music seems to have been very carefully chosen, so I presume the various film and television clips are very deliberate as well. It's been years since I've watched La Dolce Vida - do you have any thoughts as to the significance of the use of that particular clip during the bedroom scene?[/quote:efae401358]
I promise to watch [i:efae401358]La Dolce Vida[/i:efae401358] soon.

[b:efae401358]phillygalinutah[/b:efae401358] - loved what you wrote, but it was so good I can't add anything to it.

[quote:efae401358="Found and Lost"]I read your wise comment and here is what I want you to ask you, it's important for me so please reply. Assuming they are real people, do you think Bob still loves Charlotte or does he see her just as a memory now? I mean does he think of her every day of his life and misses her badly or has the whole thing faded away for him over the time?[/quote:efae401358]
I think, over time, in a marriage, you can fill a Rolodex of whistful what-ifs like that. I don't think he thinks of her everyday...at least, not after the first month.

[quote:efae401358="Found and Lost and Found"]In my country, we have a movie made in the end of the 70-s describing a similar situation.[/quote:efae401358]
Title? Stars? Come on, brother, don't keep it all to yourself!"
Last edited by jm on Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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What I think

#40 Post by Lochlain » Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:37 pm

Seriously, we'll never find it out... . Copolla did good, it's a piece that will never let you go. I think it's something each one was should decide on his own (I think someone said that before, I agree with that). We all had similar situations in our lives, so it's deeply personnal.
As for me - I would never let go such woman. That would be a fatal mistake & weakness I would never forgive to myself. It's just unfair - finally you have found a true friend (or love) & now you have to let it go. Why?!
So my whisper would be somethin like:
"Is it really nessessary to end it? I can't think about my life without you...
Stay... please... Let's just a leave it as it is..."
And maybe that smile of her would mean "OK..."
_____________________

I never understood why people say "goodbye" when they don't want to say "goodbye". I guess it's in human nature - pushing happyness away...

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