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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:22 pm
Ive found this a powerful scene due to the way Bob and Charlotte seem to be dancing round each other in such a confined space, and on the final night too.
I wasn't sure whether something would actually happen between them when I first saw it. Charlotte's first look at Bob in the elevator, is a long, intense look, to me it seems to be full of lust, but as soon as Bob turns to her and you see him nod towards the elevator door, she goes all shy, but still has a smile on her face. In this, I thought he was motioning for her to come to his room, I mean he did it twice and when she didn't really make an notion that she was going to go, he makes a face that kind of said *embarrased & yeah probably a bad idea* . That's what I made from it anyway, and the kisses seem to be awkward too. I think they both knew what would happen if Charlotte would have gone back to his room, and that's why she didn't.
Charlotte knew Bob was leaving the next morning, and as much as I think she loved him, I don't think she could bare to sleep with him and then watch him leave the next day. Although I think Bob, would have wanted to, by how he was acting in the lift, and then he nearly followed her as she got out. lol
Anyhoo, thats my spin on it, and the whisper; I have in my head *what I hear him say anyway* and I do think they will see each other again, but hey that's just my take on it
It's good to be able to discuss this on a board that doesn't have threads about how boring LiT is, like imdb *cough* Although I do still dip in there now and again
Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:45 pm
I never get the impression that Bob is nodding to Charlotte. They look both confused and nervous. Maybe I have to watch that scene again, but when he is "nodding" Charlotte is looking down and never sees the suppose nod.
Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:48 pm
Your take is essentially identical to Congruous. Especially the nods - I recall discussion when he insisted they were there and others didnt' think so. Hes be happy to see someone else saw them.
My view on this movie has changed so much lately. It's been almost a year since I saw it and my life has changed tremendously since then. Triggered by the movie. I still have a way to go until I have a resolution (one way or the other) but I am geting there.
I will eventually share a lot of what I mean. But right now, I will say that I've changed my view on the kiss at the end. I never coudl possibly see how they could be non-romantic friends and still share a kiss. I still see their relationship as platonic, but I also can now understand the communication that can be better expressed in a kiss than hug - given the intense emotion that must have been felt at that time.
Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:30 pm
The part where they take on an army of terrorists, while smoking. No wait, was that LiT?
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:23 pm
The nods are there, watch the scene again! He nods towards the elevator door and rolls his eyes in that direction, and Charlotte smiles and looks down! Bob does this twice, how can people miss this? I saw it first time of watching!
Wheres Congruous, I need back up here!
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:16 pm
I've been stepping back on this one, as I had a clash with JohnMonkey a very long time ago over the exact same scene (I think I elicited the dreaded "pish and tosh" response from him, that time
). But yes, I saw the nods, as well. And they are obvious, in a subtle kind of way (just like everything else in this film). Charlotte sees "The Nod", but tactfully ignores it.
Congruous, where are you? There's safety in numbers, ya know...
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:06 am
"[quote:61ee40d2d0="hull_street"]I've been stepping back on this one, as I had a clash with JohnMonkey a very long time ago over the exact same scene (I think I elicited the dreaded "pish and tosh" response from him, that time
). But yes, I saw the nods, as well. And they are obvious, in a subtle kind of way (just like everything else in this film). Charlotte sees "The Nod", but tactfully ignores it.[/quote:61ee40d2d0]
These alleged frak-me no-thanks nods would contradict Mr. Murray's idea of his character, as you can read here
[quote:61ee40d2d0="Mr. Bill Murray"]Well, I think what happens is he's touched by someone who has -- he's touched by this girl, he's touched by her, so that there's an emotional energy that he will always have, you know, whether he has the same vitality for his work, or for the regime of the day, maybe not, but to be emotionally touched is to be fresh and be alive and be new, uh, and it's a shock for him to feel something where, in his own personal relationship, it had become perhaps mundane and ordinary. So there was a new old feeling. He had an old feeling again that he liked. And he responded to it. And, but because his life had developed, and he was more of a developed man, he wasn't going to let -- he wasn't going to spoil that. Which was what Sofia was trying to say, that he knew how to have an exchange with someone, and to spend time with someone, and be intimate with someone without becoming invasive and damaging to the other person or to his own life.... Well, I think I tried to watch him go and to be him and to watch him at the same time. So that as he was reacting and behaving, that he was -- that I was watching him. And I think that's what his character was doing, he's doing things and he's watching himself . He knows what's happening: he sees the attraction of this woman, he sees the situation, he sees how far away he is from his home, and he knows, he feels the pull of the emotion pulling him towards the woman and he feels the pull towards his own home. And he's just watching it, and I think it's his watching it that enables him to maintain his dignity, and to do the best thing for himself and for Scarlett's character. To do the best thing for the girl and for himself -- and if he hadn't been watching, and the moment he's not watching is when he falls for the girl in the bar, you know? But partly that moment occurs he doesn't want to spoil the other thing, he doesn't want to spoil with the other girl. He knows he's a man and he's weak, maybe he has his weaknesses, but he doesn't want to be weak for her, with her.[/quote:61ee40d2d0]
I'm sorry to repeat myself, but: pish, tosh, and [b:61ee40d2d0]pfui![/b:61ee40d2d0]"
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:20 am
I love this board!!
(Congruous - are you there? Everything OK?)
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:44 pm
Well, after thinking a bit I suppose both points of view can be valid. It's clear to me - even without Bill's interview (which I think is great!) that Sofia menat this to be be a non-sexual relationship in every sense. That the sexual tension that existed was to be in the audiences mind - not the characters; that we are so used to see the main guy "f*ck the chickie" as one female reviewer described it - that we are get swept up with emotion when we realize it won't and shoudln't happen. That's what makes the ending work so powerfully.
And yet - I have to concede that the nods are there only because several people saw them clearly. So - how to reconcile that. Simple - many of the scenes were improvised. Bill decided to portray the feeling of not wanting to go home - not wanting the night to end - by nodding "let's go back to your room (or was it his room - I don't recall.) Not necessarily for sex (again, that's an audience expectation) but just to keep the night (or morning) going. He ends it with the awkward kiss on the cheek (twice); hardly a move from a guy trying to make a move - in my opinion.
The nods - assuming they are there - are brilliant improvisation in that it continues to capture the ambiguity in the audience's mind. From Bill's interview - there was NO ambiguity in his mind. Charlotte was too special to become just another sexual partner from his business trips (and from the ease he went with the singer it was always clear to me that cheating on his wife was not unusual for him).
This is really an under-apreciated film (not by us, obviously.) There is a very different film out that Ebert raves about called "Duck Season" that essentially is a slice of life movie of teenagers killing time during the day. Sounds like a film that is based on emotion, what is and isn't said, facial expressions, and like LiT does such a great job of imitating what happens in real likf that people end up thinking it's boring - when in fact displaying reality is probably a director's greatest challenge.
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:11 pm
Ok, maybe I was wrong about Bob wanting Charlotte to go to his room for the obvious reason, but I think he definetly wanted to continue the night with her, with it being their last and all. But, and this is a big but, Charlotte wouldn't go, and she had spent the night with him before, so why the reluctance now? This is why I was thinking she was scared of what would happen, even with good intentions, and why Bob made the face, and their awkward kisses etc. I mean the awkward kisses were scripted weren't they? They must be scripted "awkward" for a reason?
However, after reading the interview, very good that it is, I have to agree it wasn't meant to have any sexual connection between the characters, but Bill's idea to improvise the nod, definetly leaves you wondering. Maybe he did it to emphasise the situation and what could happen, and why it's not a good idea. Also, I think Sofia left it in because she knew it would cause this kind of debate, clever woman that she is, lol. I think I read the nod wasn't scripted, does anyone know that for sure?
Anyhoo after all that, I still think they will see each other again, on a friendly basis of course
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:16 pm
in that scene the confusion and nodding are about the fact that Bob missed his elevator stop and had to go further to Charlottes, and then go back down again to his floor, IIRC
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:28 pm
"Boy do I feel smug right now
Good discussion gang"
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:47 pm
johnmonkey wrote:Boy do I feel smug right now
Good discussion gang
Don't get too
cocky there, J-dog. The nods we are referring to occur before
he misses his stop.
Remember...subtle. Just observe. She "ignores" the first nod, and I believe she completely misses the second, then Bob gets that "Okay, I give up" look on his face. Then
the elevator stops.
Btw, I never believed it was a sex invitation, just that he wanted to continue the evening together with her. After everything that had happened that day, Charlotte made a quick judgement call, and most likely the right one. But the nods are there.
Pfui ? Hah !
Edit: I just had to add, I can't believe Bill Murray didn't get the Oscar for this performance. I hope the Academy gives him a "make-up" one, or a Lifetime Acheivement Award, or something
, for the love of God.
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:11 am
"Well, I think that I can be cocky, since you're left pointing out that, for some reason or other, Mr. Murray's head didn't keep level.
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:45 am
johnmonkey wrote:Well, I think that I can be cocky, since you're left pointing out that, for some reason or other, Mr. Murray's head didn't keep level.
My goodness, John, I believe that may be the first time you've ever acknowledged that he didn't
keep his head level.
Maybe you're not hopeless, after all.
I'll keep working on you.
One day, you will
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:10 am
"[quote:ea7da02b46="hull_street"]I'll keep working on you.
One day, you [b:ea7da02b46][i:ea7da02b46]will[/i:ea7da02b46][/b:ea7da02b46] see this.
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:46 am
I'll keep working on you.
One day, you will see this.
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:40 pm
I saw the nods, but they mean nothing to me. Why would you nod when you are alone in an elevator? What I see when I view this scene is Charlotte giving Bob the green light. She does it at least twice. The eyes, the body language, the wry smile...she's saying, "Come on." She's playing Bob like a fiddle...and he lets it slip away, which, I guess, is the direction the movie had to go.
By the way, this is my original post on this interesting topic:
If it had been me in that elevator with her after the fire alarm and she had looked at me the way she looked at Bob, it would have been all over. There would have been clothes flying everywhere and the next scene would have been of a jumbo jet heading to the states with the two of us on board. To heck with John and Lydia.
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:32 pm
Hmmm i see it the other way round, I find the nods quite important even though they might have been improvised, for the simple reason Sofia decided to keep them in the final cut. My theory on why nod when it was just the two of them on the lift? Well, I think Bill wanted to highlight Bob and Charlottes situation, and it would have been too obvious if he'd said "Do you want to come back to my room?". Plus Sofia would have probably cut it out the scene, but she decided to leave it in because it's more subtle. It was just fantastic on the spot improvisation. Although I doknow where you're coming from with the "look".
But if i'd been on the elevator, and Bob had nodded at me, i'd have got off on his floor!
and yeah to heck with John and Lydia!
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:06 pm
I agree with Congruous
. The movie's direction implied that they shouldn't consumate their relationship. I think this made the movie work since it left that sense of "What if..." in the end. This of course plays into the whole theme of the connections and "what if's" we all have daily.
But hell.. what do I know.. All I know is that the scenes when Bob and Charlotte are shown together as their connection deepens are all my favorites... from the initial crowded elevator smile at Bob, all the way to the final hug and kiss..