Happy ending or depressing ending, and what it says about us

Discuss the fabulous movie Lost In Translation!

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BrassInPocket
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Happy ending or depressing ending, and what it says about us

#1 Post by BrassInPocket » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:26 am

This is one of the things that really, really fascinates me about this movie.
This is my all-time favorite movie, so I really wanted my girlfriend to watch it. She watched it, and said that she didn't care for it because the ending was so utterly depressing. Bob goes back to his loveless marriage and Charlotte goes back to her lackluster husband and nothing changes. This just floored me, because I see the ending as being rather happy. Both Bob and Charlotte are lost, they find each other, and they both take away something from the encounter and are re-energized because of it.
But then, I started running into more and more people who also thought the movie was "depressing". And then they look at me funny when I tell them that watching the movie actually cheers me up when I am depressed.
Why is it that some people believe it's a happy movie, while others feel so strongly that it's unbelievably depressing? Does how we feel about the movie show how we feel about the world in general (i.e. people who see it as "happy" are more optimistic and romantic, while the "depressing" people are more "realist")?
There is such a clear-cut line about how people view the movie, and this just really fascinates me.
Any thoughts/comments/suggestions? :)

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#2 Post by Congruous » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:57 pm

I consider it to be happy because we get to see two people who are stuck in ruts slowly realize that life has more for them than they suspected. We don't know for certain that they will go back to their old lives. Probably they will go back to those old lives, but each viewer has to decide for him or herself what really happens. At the very least, each of the characters now knows that there is someone out there who really cares for them.
"Are there no more arrows left?"

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#3 Post by preciouswhile » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:31 pm

Bittersweet is always the word I use to describe it. The ending is sad...take your pick of reasons: friendship ending, saying goodbye, going back to their spouses/lives - whatever. But the last individual shots we see of Bob and Charlotte, they're both smiling, if only slightly.

So you're sad for the sad reasons, and happy because of what they shared and gained - bittersweet.

Like so many things in life, it isn't a clear-cut line.

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#4 Post by Pockets » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:32 pm

I'm between optimistic and bittersweet... poignant? I feel that if you keep and open mind/heart, every day has possibilities. I've met and interacted with many interesting people of all ages and walks of life, and it's because I am open to interaction.

Several weeks ago, I was at the grocery store in the meat section. I heard a customer talking to one of the butchers and he had a very hearty laugh. I moved closer and saw that he was ordering several prime rib roasts. So I just walked up and joined in on the conversation and asked him how he was going to prepare them etc... anyway, we had a wonderful 15 minutes of talking about cooking and not having children.

There are wonderful people everywhere, even though it seems that the idiots greatly outnumber us...

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#5 Post by LostCalls » Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:12 am

I think there's a sort of fortuitous ambiguity in the film--one that allows us to feel both happy and sad and maybe even see those two seemingly opposed emotions as intricately interwoven with one another. Maybe happiness and sadness are two parts to one greater...thing?? I don't know.

But, I think this is one of the reasons that "More Than This" is such a fitting choice of songs for Bob to sing. Just those words of the song's title could be interpreted in apparently opposing ways:

1. "you know there's nothing more than this." (Our lives are empty--filled with nothing-ness, and this is depressing),

2. "you know there's nothing more than this." (This one moment together is so important to me that I feel as if there is nothing else to life. This could be seen as depressing and isolating, but it could also be suggesting that one powerful connection can positively inform the rest of life's experiences. I.e., you (Charlotte) are everything to me right now...but that also makes me see potential beauty in other things...maybe.)

There's also a kind of opposition set up by the lyrics with regards to Bob and Charlotte's (romantic) relationship. In one sense, Bob could be implying that there's nothing more to their relationship than this--that is, a deep friendship, yes, but a romance, no. Yet, the way in which he sings so directly to Charlotte just emphasizes their connection (and makes her blush), which could be furthering some romantic feelings. In other words, the implication from Bob could be "I'm telling you that there's 'nothing more than this' with my words, but we really both tacitly understand that there could be. We're sharing an inside joke-type moment."

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#6 Post by BrassInPocket » Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:38 am

Wow...*great* post! I have thought about the duality of the "More Than This" lyrics before, but you summed it up perfectly. :)

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#7 Post by 52FM » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:57 pm

Many people have described the feeling they got at the end of LiT as a "kick in the stomach". It's real life - not at all "movie-ish". No resolution, no hint at their feelings. We are viewing a "slice of life" and essentially are observers. Note that Sofia doesn't resort to those unrealistic conversations between friends that so many movies use to show you exactly what the character is thinking. All we know about how they are feeling comes from dialogue with each other - and those incredibly well-acted facial expressions through the film.

The script says at the end (I'm paraprasing without looking up the exact words): Bob was glad he came to Japan, and he was glad to be going home.

I would add that - as Charlotte said - he coudl never go back there again (especially with Lydia!)

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Re: Happy ending or depressing ending, and what it says abou

#8 Post by tsooml » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:39 am

"[quote:05318e9574="BrassInPocket"]Bob goes back to his loveless marriage and Charlotte goes back to her lackluster husband and nothing changes. [/quote:05318e9574]
What's loveless about Bob's marriage?
What's wrong with Charlotte's husband?
Methinks these critics have seen too much 50s family/marriage sitcoms."
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Re: Happy ending or depressing ending, and what it says abou

#9 Post by Pockets » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:04 am

thesoundofonemanlaughing wrote:What's loveless about Bob's marriage?
What's wrong with Charlotte's husband?
Methinks these critics have seen too much 50s family/marriage sitcoms.
So tell the rest of us, what love do you see in Bob's marriage? His wife Fedex's him carpet samples, she is peeved that he missed his son's birthday, she never tells him that she misses or loves him. The only love I see from his family is in the faxed messages from his children. But there is zero affection from his wife and we see none from Bob to his wife.

As a woman, John is a big fat zero. As it's a young marriage, there is an astounding lack of affection and intimacy between them, zero sexual tension. It's not just in what's not spoken, but also in their body language. My impression that Charlotte is not welcome on this trip, that John made a half-hearted invitation to go along to Japan and she took him up on it. Then she spends most of the trip trying to stay out of his way and not get in the way of the photo shoot dynamics. Hence her listening to the philosophy cd's and staying behind when her hubbie goes out of the city for the shoot. When they are all at the bar, John is ignoring Charlotte, not even having his arm around her. In this day and age, John's behaviour to Charlotte in public is rude and unacceptable.

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Re: Happy ending or depressing ending, and what it says abou

#10 Post by tsooml » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:43 pm

"[quote:7fe7734708="Pockets"]So tell the rest of us, what love do you see in Bob's marriage? His wife Fedex's him carpet samples, she is peeved that he missed his son's birthday, she never tells him that she misses or loves him. The only love I see from his family is in the faxed messages from his children. But there is zero affection from his wife and we see none from Bob to his wife.[/quote:7fe7734708]
Why is Bob's wife Fedexing him carpet samples? She could just say to the workers, hell, make the den whatever color you want and the bastard will have to live with it. Instead, she gets these samples, takes them down to the Fedexporium, and boxes them up and sends them to Bob. That is love, perhaps not in a hot frak-me teen movie way, but it is love. And if Bob and his wife are bitchy at each other because he's run off to Tokyo to "work" while she has to watch the kids and supervise house builders, well, that isn't going to end my marriage even if it would end yours. If Bob really couldn't tell from her constant contact that she misses him and loves him, he wouldn't be Bob. Bob is the one that's run off to play in Tokyo; Bob is the one always bitchy on the phone; and if that singer is the first time Bob's cheated on his wife, well, I don't think so. If there's an asshole in that marriage, it's Bob, and he seems to know it.

[quote:7fe7734708="Pockets"]As a woman, John is a big fat zero.[/quote:7fe7734708]
I think we would all agree on that.

[quote:7fe7734708="Pockets"]As it's a young marriage, there is an astounding lack of affection and intimacy between them, zero sexual tension. It's not just in what's not spoken, but also in their body language. My impression that Charlotte is not welcome on this trip, that John made a half-hearted invitation to go along to Japan and she took him up on it.[/quote:7fe7734708]
I don't think he invited her along anymore than he invited her along to have drinks with Kelly. John has work to do in Tokyo, and jobless graduate tags along instead of trying to get a job and stays clingy through the whole trip. Charlotte's an a**, and until she Finds Herself or does whatever kids do, she'll be an a**.

Of course, she'll get work and get comfortable with herself, and they'll be much happier."
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#11 Post by BrassInPocket » Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:37 am

I *completely* agree with Pockets' statement about how it's strangely lacking intimacy for a young marriage. There was always something "off" about their relationship to me, and Pocket nailed it right on the head. So thank you.
And, whether or not Bob and wife still love each other, I don't ever want to have the relationship that they seem to have in the movie. Maybe I am just old-fashioned and what they have a more realistic portrayal of love, but to me, it seems loveless and a stay-together-for-the-kids kind of thing.

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#12 Post by 52FM » Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:50 am

I agree that Charlotte and John have issues; not clear though how much responsibility Charlotte herself shoudl take. But there is tension in their discussions - especially when John says "why must you always make others look stupid" or whatever he said to her. They don't get each other anymore, and it's very soon in their marriage for that to happen Which means they may never have really "got" each other int he first place. Probalby all too common in young marriages.

Bob and Lydia also have clear issues - but maybe not "loveless" ones. Rather they are going through the motions and simply are on different pages. THAT I relate to all too well. It's may not be a lack of love (in my case it isn't) - but Lydia is still very consumed with the responsibilities and stresses of parenting (apparently almost as a single mother at time). So her thoughts and needs are more focused on the immediate and the simple.

After a while, it's difficult to get out of that mindset. My wife and I had a conversation about that very thing last night. Women - being the nuturers most often - can have trouble letting go of that and seeing themselves as a person not "defined" by being a mother. Trouble readjusting their life to one as it was before children.

Bob and Lydia's kids are surprisingly young for his age int he film. They have a LONG way to go as far as that is. Bob loves his kids - or at least loves the concept of them (it's unclear what active part in their development he really takes). I suspect he may have found a renewed sense of importance in that role as he talked to Charlotte that night.

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#13 Post by Pockets » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:51 pm

52FM wrote:I agree that Charlotte and John have issues; not clear though how much responsibility Charlotte herself shoudl take. But there is tension in their discussions - especially when John says "why must you always make others look stupid" or whatever he said to her. They don't get each other anymore, and it's very soon in their marriage for that to happen Which means they may never have really "got" each other int he first place. Probalby all too common in young marriages.
John only married Charlotte for her beauty and not being a typical blonde party girl, so he definitely doesn't "get" her. As a professional photographer, he could only marry or date a "hottie". And Charlotte being academically inclined threatens him and the rest of his world because she is a thinker and a writer. She may not be even overtly criticizing his friends, but he can tell that they don't impress her. She needs writers and other academics around her.

As I've stated before, my previous relationships failed ultimately due to boyfriends' lack of intellectualism. My current boyfriend uses his mind and that is very refreshing to me. And he constantly tells me that it's my brain that he loves the most.

I am really looking forward to watching LiT again tomorrow on Encore Love. :)

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#14 Post by tsooml » Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:04 am

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#15 Post by Pockets » Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:33 am

Which is why the beauty of the movie's ambiguous ending. We all have different life experiences and different definitions of what we want out of a soulmate and life partner. I'm very logical for a female, but a closet romantic. Since watching the new BBC production of it, I've been re-reading Jane Eyre. And here are some of my favorite passages.

From Chapter 23 and what Rochester says to Jane:
"Because," he said, "I sometimes have a queer feeling with regard to you--especially when you are near me, as now: it is as if I had a string somewhere under my left ribs, tightly and inextricably knotted to a similar string situated in the corresponding quarter of your little frame. And if that boisterous Channel, and two hundred miles or so of land come broad between us, I am afraid that cord of communion will be snapt; and then I've a nervous notion I should take to bleeding inwardly. As for you,--you'd forget me."
This one is from the last chapter (38) and Jane's own words about her marriage:
My tale draws to its close: one word respecting my experience of married life, and one brief glance at the fortunes of those whose names have most frequently recurred in this narrative, and I have done.

I have now been married ten years. I know what it is to live entirely for and with what I love best on earth. I hold myself supremely blest--blest beyond what language can express; because I am my husband's life as fully is he is mine. No woman was ever nearer to her mate than I am: ever more absolutely bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. I know no weariness of my Edward's society: he knows none of mine, any more than we each do of the pulsation of the heart that beats in our separate bosoms; consequently, we are ever together. To be together is for us to be at once as free as in solitude, as gay as in company. We talk, I believe, all day long: to talk to each other is but a more animated and an audible thinking. All my confidence is bestowed on him, all his confidence is devoted to me; we are precisely suited in character--perfect concord is the result.

Mr. Rochester continued blind the first two years of our union; perhaps it was that circumstance that drew us so very near--that knit us so very close: for I was then his vision, as I am still his right hand. Literally, I was (what he often called me) the apple of his eye. He saw nature--he saw books through me; and never did I weary of gazing for his behalf, and of putting into words the effect of field, tree, town, river, cloud, sunbeam--of the landscape before us; of the weather round us--and impressing by sound on his ear what light could no longer stamp on his eye. Never did I weary of reading to him; never did I weary of conducting him where he wished to go: of doing for him what he wished to be done. And there was a pleasure in my services, most full, most exquisite, even though sad- -because he claimed these services without painful shame or damping humiliation. He loved me so truly, that he knew no reluctance in profiting by my attendance: he felt I loved him so fondly, that to yield that attendance was to indulge my sweetest wishes.
So this is more of what I think an ideal marriage should be about. Much affection and enjoyment of each other's company. Being able to share every thought with your mate, never tiring of each other's company. I just don't see any of this with Bob and Lydia or Charlotte and John. Kids and duty can't be the only glue that holds a marriage together. And I have not a clue as to what might be the special link between Charlotte and John.

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#16 Post by tsooml » Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:55 am

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#17 Post by Pitman » Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:18 am

It's pure idealism to suggest that you could never tire of your partner. But this is a sentiment common to young love. Bob's in one of those all to common "stay together for the kids" marriage. And Charlotte is obviously frustrated in her lack of intellectual reciprocation with John.

Pockets, I agree with your analysis of their marriages.

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#18 Post by Pockets » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:24 pm

thesoundofonemanlaughing wrote:Well, when you get older, when you acquire more humility, and you have more experience, I think that you won't talk like that. I'm sorry, but what absolute rot: "being able to share every thought," "never tiring of each other's company."
Well... I am... old enough and I am in the happiest and mental healthiest relationship of my life. Sure it's only been three years so far, but my boyfriend and I spent much of each day together as we are both self-employed and work out of our house. We do consider the depth of our relationship quite rare. We have common interests with motorsports, business ideas, cooking and everything on the history and science channels. We can talk about anything and go to sleep at night still discussing everything. We do spend separate time with other people, but are always happy to return home to each other. I am not a clingy female by any means, and he is not an insecure jealous male. I can talk car shop with any mechanic. I am not a typical female and abhor shopping malls.

But it is quite possible to find someone that you would want to spend most of your waking hours with. But it helps to base the relationship on more than just physical attraction. It helps to have a wide horizon of interests.

I am sad to say that I find the company of most girls and women quite boring. But that is what happens when our culture is only impressed with women who are beautiful...

Not all men are good company either, but I come across more interesting men than women.
thesoundofonemanlaughing wrote:As for Miss Johanson, I would be pleased to have the insight that you and 52FM share with us about her, if I thought it were based on more knowledge of her than I have.
I am very capable of evaluated a young female like Scarlett, and part of that is being a female myself. In addition, as someone who loves movies, I feel that I can also tell an extraordinary actor or actress from a mediocre one. I was in the pit orchestra of a number of musicals in high school and I am quite familiar with a director's handling of his talent. What Scarlett has going for her is her beauty and youth. Dakota Fanning has more talent and perceptiion than she does. I am thinking that Scarlett's problem (like Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears and the ilk) is that she (and they) are lacking in the culture and academic departments. The reading of good literature would help her (and them) out a lot.

I have never said that Scarlett is a bad actress, but she has a long ways to go to be considered a great actress. Right now for her, with any potential movie role, it will be a battle of the blondes or nymphettes with the studio picking the girl with the biggest box office draw.
thesoundofonemanlaughing wrote:God bless us, everyone!
I'm going to pass on the God bless as I am a decided atheist.
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#19 Post by tsooml » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:24 am

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#20 Post by Pockets » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:12 pm

thesoundofonemanlaughing wrote:
Pockets wrote:I'm going to pass on the God bless as I am a decided atheist.
Let's enjoy that one note of agreement :wink:
Then why the "God bless"? Did you just feel like quoted Tiny Tim? lol

Basically, I believe in having a relationship with someone who is best friend quality. And I am very lucky to find that with my current boyfriend. I understand the concept behind Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus, but there are always a few people that defy being put in such simple categories.

And I feel that life is too short (plus we may get only one life) and so one shouldn't compromise on the choice of company and vocation. Before I met my boyfriend, I was happily single for about 2-3 years, I didn't even date. I had a great dog and that was enough (I happen to enjoy my own company). Then about 6 months before I met my boyfriend, I had four guys want to go out with me. I resisted them all. It wasn't even worth one dinner date (free food!) as I knew that they weren't my type for the long run. The two worst guys thought that they were very bright and intelligent, but they were terrible listeners. And if you told them about something you had just purchased or done, they would immediately tell you that he would have done it better. I tried to tell them both (separately, of course) why they wasn't such good company for me, but they couldn't grasp it. Another guy was just not strong enough in temperament for me, just too gentle a soul. I could see my bullying him around eventually (no good). But three of the four guys would have been okay short-term company, but that is no good when I could miss Mr. Right while wasting precious time with Mr. Mediocre.

But my life philosophy is why I feel that *I* would like to see Charlotte divorce John after returning home from Tokyo to work on her writing. She's a submissive personality, and I think that she would more quickly find her inner voice if she were single. Someone like Bob could help her with encouraging her writing, but I would like her to do it on her own. Then later on, I would love to see her have an active friendship of some sort with Bob and even have him act in one of her works.

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