Why is Charlotte............

[Blissbomb]

..........so upset that Bob had a fling with the Cabaret singer?

When they are sitting in the "cook your own meat" bar for lunch, she is shiitty with him and has a go at him about them both being from the fifties.

Bob just sits there saying nothing?

[sooner77]

I've said elsewhere that I think Charlotte would have run off with Bob if he'd asked. She is upset because, even though she's married, she is in love with Bob and upset that he "cheated" on her.

The scene in the sushi place was when I realized that Scarlett is probably going to win multiple Oscars and have a long career on the A-list. That look she gives Bob is worth about a page of dialogue: "You idiot, can't you tell I'm nuts about you?".

[jm]

"Well, Scarlett has said in an interview that Charlotte loves her husband and that it would have been awful if the two principals had, to give it its American term, screwed. And I really don't think Charlotte would have done that...she made no move toward that when in his bed, and neither did he.

Let me get a link where you can read quotes from what they said about this...

http://www.livejournal.com/users/johnmonkey/8099.html
Scroll down to, or search for:
2004-02-16 22:53:00
Lost in Translation again -- Getting Bob and Charlotte together at the end"

[sooner77]

I've read that interview and to me it was like Scarlett was imposing her feelings about the situation onto the movie. If there was no way Charlotte was going to hook up with Bob, why did she tell him to stay in Tokyo with her when he confessed that he didn't want to leave? There is a big difference of opinion over just what that flippant "jazz band" remark was supposed to mean, but I think in her own way she was letting him know she wouldn't mind it if he stayed.

[MyTwoCents]

I've read that interview and to me it was like Scarlett was imposing her feelings about the situation onto the movie. If there was no way Charlotte was going to hook up with Bob, why did she tell him to stay in Tokyo with her when he confessed that he didn't want to leave? There is a big difference of opinion over just what that flippant "jazz band" remark was supposed to mean, but I think in her own way she was letting him know she wouldn't mind it if he stayed.

I agree, but for a different reason. I think she was indeed being flip with him in the bar scene where he's got his hand on hers...but this was because just a little while earlier, standing outside in their jammies, she says "I'm going to miss you", to which he just shrugs. That dismissal of her admitting she's going to miss him no doubt stung a bit, and by being flip with him in the bar she was getting him back.

HOWEVER, in the lunch scene the day after he diddles the lounge singer Charlotte says something like, "well, she is closer to your age", meaning closer to his age than Charlotte, thereby setting up the implication that she was indeed a bit jealous and that before him doing something so stupid there was a chance that she (Charlotte) and Bob would sleep together.

[jm]

"[quote:2fd49491e6="sooner77"]If there was no way Charlotte was going to hook up with Bob, why did she tell him to stay in Tokyo with her when he confessed that he didn't want to leave?[/quote:2fd49491e6]No, that was a joke..

And sometimes, friends, you may want to do something that you would never do and you know wouldn't work out if you did."

[Inaudible_Whisper]

No, that was a joke..

And sometimes, friends, you may want to do something that you would never do and you know wouldn't work out if you did.

I disagree it was a joke to an extent. I believe she did want him to stay, and by adding the jazz quote she is 'lessing the blow' of the remark by passing it off as a joke. She was probably hoping for a "I wish I could" reply to wish she could of played along with somethink like "Really...!?" when all along its exactly what she wanted.

On the other hand, she could be showing both sides of her thoughts. She wanted him to stay, because her feelings were growing for him, but she 'lessened the blow' on herself by passing it off as a joke as she knew deep down it was never going to happen.

[Guest]

LIT had so meanings on different levels that I watched more than just a few times too.



My feelings are that in the simplest terms Bob and Charlotte expressed their feelings about themselves in their karaoke songs. Bob sings soulfully wishing for some "Peace. Love and Understanding" (from his wife, agent, fans and friends he most likely has trouble communicating with in a meaningful way) and "More Than This"...there is nothing song (to Charlotte in expressing that it's not possible for him to have more with Charlotte beyond their mutual feelings of loneliness and isolation in Toyko). Charlotte sings "Brass in Pocket" plaintively wanting Bob to acknowledge she is special (as she's not feeling like she belongs and is lost about where she's going in her life; her husband seems to view her in Toyko as a "heavy brick around his neck").

When Bob and Charlotte were in his bedroom, I think there was ample opportunity for a sexual liaison, but Charlotte's questions suggested she was truly confused about her marriage and her own life role, and she was looking to Bob for sage wisdom to help her through a difficult time. Bob really could have 'swooped in" and taken advantage of her vulnerability, but instead wisely shared that marriage was hard, and he focused on the happy times with his wife, Lydia, and the joy his children bring him. This scene was performed brilliantly, and was not what most of the film audience initially expected as an outcome.

I believe Charlotte was mad after learning Bob slept with the singer because Bob burst her illusion that he was above shallow relationships, one-night flings, etc, after they had both realized they were missing closer personal communication connections with others (particularly their spouses). She said her cruel remarks purposely to let him know she was hurt that around her, he enjoyed that new old feeling of personally relating with her as much as she did, but if she wasn't there, he could as easily be shallow and have a one-night stand and nothing more. How could Bob really rebutt her stinging truth after he just chased after her to a restaurant after ditching the singer?

The alarm scene and the subsequent bar and elevator scenes are interesting. Charlotte is honest she'll miss Bob. I took Bob's shrug to mean, "yea, I know, me too" and that's why they end up in the bar. Here, I think it hits Bob harder that their short time together is over, and he has to decide whether to reveal to Charlotte that leaving her will be very hard because she's helped him realize he can still enjoy a close personal relationship at 50 years plus:). It's hard for me to decide whether Charlotte's ...we can start a jazz band remark was meant to lighten the mood or a way to deflect Bob from taking them down a relationship path she wasn't prepared to follow through on now that she knows that he thinks she's special. She kept gazing lovingly back at him. Regardless, Bob immediately pulled his hand back from her, and didn't pursue his remark further. Another poster pointed out Bob's nods in the elevator. I didn't notice them at first. Now, it seems Bob wished their night wasn't over, and was hoping she join him for another late night in his room. Charlotte didn't see or ignored his nod cues. Bob's dignity kicked in when he hesitated and let the elevator door close after she departed the elevator.

The time alone until the last morning I believe gave Bob the perspective that he needed to do what was right for Charlotte and for himself so they could each go forward in their lives. That's why the ending scene in the Toyko street and Bob's whisper to Charlotte closed their time together in a positive way for both of them (they're both smiling and seem more at peace).

I listened to the Whisper wave file , and I believe Bob most closely whispered, "Promise me you won't give up so easily; on the flight back, tell your husband the truth, okay?"

I took that to mean her marriage vows as well as her personal aspirations. Charlotte revealed to Bob what her husband didn't like about her or what she didn't like about herself or her marriage. Bob wanted her to express herself to her husband, and not distance her marital relationship in the way that Bob had done in his marriage over the years.

I hoped that Bob took his own sage advice, and tried to reconnect the intimate communications he had lost with his wife.

That's my two cents...sorry it was a long read

[phillygalinutah]

DUH!!

Sorry that was my post above. I thought I had signed in.

[jm]

"Nice work, Philly Gal in Utah.

I loved the first three-fifths...except for the elevator stuff (which is crap and no one will convince me otherwise) and that whisper stuff. "

[2late]

In relation to the movie, I would suggest thinking about our own inability to be caring and understanding not just with those we meet casually, say on a train or at a hotel bar, but with people who are the closest ones to us. Why is it so? Why aren’t we as nice with our mothers, wives, sons, and I would even dare say bosses (don’t we spend the biggest part of our lifetime at work after all)? I do have an answer to it and I would like to have your opinions as well. My answer is – it is easy to be kind and understanding with strangers, we have no obligations, and when it comes to our families - it requires an effort. We don’t want take an effort to forgive each other, we get irritated about some minor trifles, we ask for too much attention to our “special-so-special individualities” without trying to be at least half as critical to ourselves than to our wives or parents or kids. In reality, we are snotty, we are self-absorbed, lazy and selfish people. Nothing comes without an effort and life is fair to us when we get punished by loneliness, emptiness, etc. Now tell me that I am not right.

[phillygalinutah]

2Late, I agree with your sentiments.

Did you see the Newsweek, July 12 issue with the headline, "The "New Infidelity"...More Wives are Cheating More? I don't know if I agree that there's an epidemic of cheating wives in the US, but the recurring theme was overscheduled lives and inattentive husbands. Well, the stories seemed to scream Charlotte's "Brass in Pocket" song lyrics, but sadly the article suggests women want love, attention and affection from their husbands, but they're not willing to face up that they may have played a part in their current state of marriage, so instead they seek out new male relationships to satisfy what they've lost in their marriage. And worse, it's done purposely with no regard to how such an affair may damage their marriage or children if revealed.

Well, I related to Charlotte when I was young like her, but I didn't marry in my early 20s either. I'm a working married mother, now. so I really related more with Bob being married for a number of years like me. Marriage is hard, and it's easy to fall into mundane routines, and perhaps neglect your personal marital communications because of work and children. I wanted children, and a long happy marriage like my parents had. I loved LIT because it helped Bob and Charlotte realize there are possibilities to enjoy new personal communications (they were strangers when they met), but their challenge is to not to give up so easily on themselves or others, and be willing to work hard at it with their spouse, children, and other important people in their lives. A thoughtful reminder for me or anyone in relationships:) Sofia captured it beautifully:)

[sooner77]

It's also easier to open up to strangers. If you're having a mid-life crisis or whatever the people that know you will either freak out or just tell you to stop whining and deal with it.

[2late]

[quote="phillygalinutah"]

I don't know if I agree that there's an epidemic of cheating wives in the US, but the recurring theme was overscheduled lives and inattentive husbands.

Thank you for your answer, Phillygalinutah. I didn’t have a chance to read the article about cheating and I’ll try to search for it in the web. From what I read in your comment, I understand that the authors suggest that when a wife cheats on her husband it’s mostly due to his inattentiveness. Now I try to understand the reason of such inattentiveness. Being a female with several years of marriage experience, I came to agree with a certain conclusion that I’ll try to express briefly.
In a society that can be called traditional, humankind CONSISTS of men and women while in a modern society influenced by feminist ideas it is DIVIDED into men and women. For feminism, these are in a way two different subspecies one of which unlawfully dominates over the other. Therefore, women have certain “corporate” goals and interests that differ from those of men. Now where do we see it leads? For me, it leads nowhere. Women started this pointless struggle, now we are all equal and yet no satisfaction follows. It appears that we still want to be weak and protected and in addition to that we want all possible freedoms, rights and privileges, plus we want all of the attention of the husband and start useless competition with his career, friends, etc. Finally both spouses get tired of all these fights and separate. In short, women are obsessed with their rights, the very word “rights” has become the key word in relations instead of “patience”, “respect” and “love”.

[jm]

"Infidelity was not a problem until feminism?
Or it is significantly larger since feminism?
And what are the numbers on that?
"

[2late]

[quote="johnmonkey"]Infidelity was not a problem until feminism?
Or it is significantly larger since feminism?
And what are the numbers on that?
:wink:[/quote]

Hello John, I like reading your mails. One day I even wanted to ask you to write a sequel of our Tokyo love story because I like your writing and I see that you enjoy it. Have you thought of it so far?
Of course, it would be silly to accuse feminism of all the problems we have in life. After all, it’s not something we were forced to accept but it grew gradually inside the society. We can well be winking at that but wouldn’t you agree divorce was an exception before all this I-will-survive and I-don’t-need-you-anymore stuff started. Marriage ties are called ties because they are ties, one has to bear them, to commit oneself to one’s spouse and once you make this decision you are to refuse a lot in your life for the sake of your family. Otherwise, it just doesn’t work, I mean the idea of creating a family.
Going back to the movie, Charlotte does not act in an obstinate way that can be described as “I want to be happy, I deserve it, I will struggle and use all means for it and I will make it”. That’s what Bob seems to like about her and so do we.

[jm]

"[quote:556eeacbd8="2late"]Hello John, I like reading your mails. One day I even wanted to ask you to write a sequel of our Tokyo love story because I like your writing and I see that you enjoy it. Have you thought of it so far? [/quote:556eeacbd8]

I haven't read any "fan fiction" about the movie. I don't think I'd want to change anything in the movie, or to add to it.

[quote:556eeacbd8="2late"]Of course, it would be silly to accuse feminism of all the problems we have in life. After all, it’s not something we were forced to accept but it grew gradually inside the society. We can well be winking at that but wouldn’t you agree divorce was an exception before all this I-will-survive and I-don’t-need-you-anymore stuff started. Marriage ties are called ties because they are ties, one has to bear them, to commit oneself to one’s spouse and once you make this decision you are to refuse a lot in your life for the sake of your family. Otherwise, it just doesn’t work, I mean the idea of creating a family. [/quote:556eeacbd8]

I don't know if easy divorce was necessarily Woman's idea. I can see guys quite liking the idea. You've had the sex you want and what you're paying for is for the woman to leave, which is what prostitution is about. Now, marriage then divorce costs so much more that I'm surprised that it has caught on, but it has. You'll have to connect feminism to easy divorce for me though.

[quote:556eeacbd8="2late"]Going back to the movie, Charlotte does not act in an obstinate way that can be described as “I want to be happy, I deserve it, I will struggle and use all means for it and I will make it”. That’s what Bob seems to like about her and so do we.[/quote:556eeacbd8]

I agree that weakness and indecision can arouse paternal and sexual feelings, but I don't know if it's to Charlotte's credit that that's where she is. I thought Charlotte had great potential to grow up, but you seem to be saying that this state of hers is the end of her journey and not the beginning.

And perhaps an unhappy marriage can work, provided you're allowed to bang the occasional lounge singer. "

[2late]

That’s what I wonder about, Winker – why is he so sure she will be allright? Maybe he isn’t and just wants to support her this way. If we see Charlotte as Sophia’s self-portrait then I understand that she’d got huge potential as far as her career is concerned. If not, I see Charlotte as a weak reflecting girl and do not see any signs for her to change in future. She is a contemplative type for me, a bit lazy and infantile and yet attractive. What potential do you see in her then?
As far as marriage is concerned, I meant to say that people do not want to compromise. I talked about women because I am a woman and have a vague idea of what’s going on in men’s heads regarding the matter. A man generally is the driving, impulsing force while a woman is the stabilizing force, the keeper of hearth and home. These used to be their “roles” that added to each other, balanced each other and formed a harmonious union. Now women perform both roles and it’s very seldom that we see that they succeed in both at the same time. I doubt that it is physically possible with exception of some exceptional women. So nobody stays by the hearth and it stops burning.

[jm]

"[quote:e8212e3f63="2late"]....If not, I see Charlotte as a weak reflecting girl and do not see any signs for her to change in future. She is a contemplative type for me, a bit lazy and infantile and yet attractive. What potential do you see in her then?[/quote:e8212e3f63]

The potential of any young person who hasn't found herself yet, but who is kind and intelligent and will be able to do well at whatever she finally finds to do with herself.

[quote:e8212e3f63="2late"]A man generally is the driving, impulsing force while a woman is the stabilizing force, the keeper of hearth and home. These used to be their “roles” that added to each other, balanced each other and formed a harmonious union. Now women perform both roles and it’s very seldom that we see that they succeed in both at the same time.[/quote:e8212e3f63]

Are you yearning for the days of the stay-at-home mom? I can't quite tell. If so, that's a fine role, if you're made for it, but I don't think every woman is made for that role, and I don't think it's a good thing to squeeze a woman who isn't into it.

Why don't you register so I can send you my email in a private message? Plus there's the free Park Hyatt toaster with your registration."

[2late]

Well, I wish kind and intelligent people were always successful in life.
And again, I don't squeeze anyone into any scheme, just shared my observations of why some families result in relations of Bob and Lydia or in no relations.