It’s that trying to find happiness carries the risk of mistakes along the way that can at best be counter-productive, and at worse can prevent real happiness. Making me wonder if it’s even worth the effort overall. I’ve ended up hurt before trying to be happy. I figured this would be different because I was doing it right. Well, maybe I haven’t done it right – or as well as I thought.
Things have taken a very unexpected turn. In all the months of counseling, we’re now suddenly focused on my personality – at my request. I am a very complex and easily misunderstood person. Even the most understanding person is likely to form an incorrect opinion eventually.
My own spouse – whom I’ve known for nearly 37 years – is sort of “getting to know me” again. That is, seeing me through different eyes. It’s a painful process.
I’ve seen that the closer I get to someone, the greater the chance that they will kind of shape the pieces of my layers of complexity to form a wrong impression. A negative impression – and the difficulty of dealing with me at some point can get so bad that it can no longer be worth it. My wife – being “stuck with me” (and in fact being in love me) finds herself wanting to try. But she can’t “get me” and it frustrates and even angers her. I shouldn’t be surprised though.
I don’t have many friends. Hell, I really don’t have ANY friends by some definition. No close ones certainly right now. And through counseling I’m finally beginning to see why. I have this real need to be myself AND for someone to truly understand me. I don’t mean as a “soul mate” (though that would be nice I suppose) but just as someone who “gets it” with me. And not necessarily my wife – just a good friend. But I have such a severe need for that I do one of two things: get bored or impatient with people who can’t come close to understanding me, and therefore I fail to nurture those friendships and I lose them. On the other side, with someone who appears to understand me and really care - I get too deep or pushy or annoying or needy or something. Ultimately the other person finds me too difficult (or worse – misinterprets me badly). The result is they abruptly change their mind about me to negative. As I look back as far back as my teenage years, this has now happened four times. In three cases, I abruptly lost contact with that person by their action or even specific request. In the other one – my “Charlotte” situation – I fell into a disastrous situation in trying to get the friendship back. And I will certainly NEVER make that mistake again. Once someone has changed their opinion of me or find themselves mistrusting me – attempts at dissuading them only seem more and more suspicious or manipulative or self-serving or pathetic. The final result has always been me going into a shell for years.
But not this time –I’m fighting to stay out of this shell and eventually learn how to have friends and be myself and not chase people away from me in fear or disgust or anger or confusion or exasperation or whatever. My wife wants to be the one (and only) person who truly understands me – but so much of me almost scares her that I’m not sure she can. People who have more natural understanding and empathy than she does ultimately could not. I think I end up demanding too much and leave the other person overwhelmed (or smothered or feeling trapped). I’m happy my wife is willing to try – but it may be that I need to learn from these failures that what I’m trying to obtain is not obtainable – and maybe not even desirable.
Still such a long way to go. I’m enjoying learning about myself from an academic perspective – but no one likes to think of themselves as someone who has to be “dealt with”.
I don’t know if I can take another expected detour. I’m tempted to just take the gains I’ve made – and they are great - and stop here.
“Complex personality. 1% of the total population. These are serious students and workers who really want to contribute. They are private and easily hurt. They make good spouses, but tend to be physically reserved. People often think they are psychic. They make good therapists, general practitioners, ministers, and so on.”
As my counselor said – my complex personality is my gift and my curse. (Which is actually a line from Spider-Man, but it reminded me more of the movie Pi and its ending.) Simple people – like my wife describes herself – have it much easier.
If there is anything I’ve learned so far…
Moderator: Bob
If there is anything I’ve learned so far…
"Willoughby. Next stop is Willoughby."
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Just Like Honey...
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- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
Re: If there is anything I’ve learned so far…
You struck a chord, 52. I feel as if I can learn a lot from you.52FM wrote:Still such a long way to go. I’m enjoying learning about myself from an academic perspective – but no one likes to think of themselves as someone who has to be “dealt with”.
I'd rather be a gear in a big, deterministic, physical machine than just some random swerving.
You'll get it right. I have no doubt about it.
Your wife wanting to be the only one that truly understands you, is something that you will eventually need to deal with, because you are a treasure that deserves to be shared. That can come later though, getting her to understand you, or at least finding out if she can, has to be your primary focus.
It sounds like the counseling is going great, and you are being strong, not reverting back to the comfortable ways that you have in the past of dealing with the type of situation that you are in now. That is huge for you on a personal level. Celebrate that.
You knew this wasn't going to be easy, or necessarily always fun. But it's all part of the ride.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZV8w3KpNpg
I know that you can do this.
To JLH: The whole personality thing is fascinating. You might want to do a little research on types such as INFP and INFJ and INTP and INTJ. I think these are the rarest types – only 1% each. (However, I would strongly caution that it takes a professional to put this in perspective. At least it’s my tendency to take info like this and extrapolate it intuitively; that can be dangerous – especially when dealing with people with very different personality types. At this point, I believe our counselor will be trying to get us to be aware of ourselves, then aware of each other, and then hopefully learn how to blend and complement rather than divide and clash.)
And who would have guessed Ith would be the one to trigger a scientific view of this in my mind. But then I realized that she was a Chem major back in the day. Anyway – “That can come later though, getting her to understand you, or at least finding out if she can, has to be your primary focus” – translates to the fact that this cannot be thought of as a parallel process; it’s sequential. I knew that, but lost sight of it for a while.
I guess with Rumsfeld’s (long overdue) resignation, I can look at this another way. There was bound to be collateral damage along the way, and assessing it and/or repairing it may have to wait until later.
OK – one last off the wall analogy. Frodo and Sam. (Don’t anyone try to figure that out. It just came to me - and even if it doesn’t fit at all, it may help me get through this part of the ride.)
Yes, Ith – I Will Survive! (And remember what I said I’d do if you ever referred to Gloria Gaynor!)
And who would have guessed Ith would be the one to trigger a scientific view of this in my mind. But then I realized that she was a Chem major back in the day. Anyway – “That can come later though, getting her to understand you, or at least finding out if she can, has to be your primary focus” – translates to the fact that this cannot be thought of as a parallel process; it’s sequential. I knew that, but lost sight of it for a while.
I guess with Rumsfeld’s (long overdue) resignation, I can look at this another way. There was bound to be collateral damage along the way, and assessing it and/or repairing it may have to wait until later.
OK – one last off the wall analogy. Frodo and Sam. (Don’t anyone try to figure that out. It just came to me - and even if it doesn’t fit at all, it may help me get through this part of the ride.)
Yes, Ith – I Will Survive! (And remember what I said I’d do if you ever referred to Gloria Gaynor!)
JLH: try this link. Fascinating stuff - but again I have to say it can be dangerous to assume or imply too much from it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBTI
Deja-vu from this; over a year ago I posted some comments about either the movie Pi or ESOTSM (or both) talking about moving from logical to emotional. Now I see that in a more scientific terms - where one can remain in a dominant quadrant and shift around between subtypes.
I know someone rather well who has a PhD in education and has studied this in realtion to learning styles. He knows me as an "IN" (introvert, intuitive). I wonder what his take is on the conflict that arises as I shift within the four subtypes of INs? I think that's why my wife doesn't get me. She falls in the opposite quadrant diagonally as far as I can tell - and I'm not sure what that implies but I suspect it makes for some large potential conflicts.
Not sure how much stock to put in this - but it's heartening to know there have been a lot of thought put into it by experts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBTI
Deja-vu from this; over a year ago I posted some comments about either the movie Pi or ESOTSM (or both) talking about moving from logical to emotional. Now I see that in a more scientific terms - where one can remain in a dominant quadrant and shift around between subtypes.
I know someone rather well who has a PhD in education and has studied this in realtion to learning styles. He knows me as an "IN" (introvert, intuitive). I wonder what his take is on the conflict that arises as I shift within the four subtypes of INs? I think that's why my wife doesn't get me. She falls in the opposite quadrant diagonally as far as I can tell - and I'm not sure what that implies but I suspect it makes for some large potential conflicts.
Not sure how much stock to put in this - but it's heartening to know there have been a lot of thought put into it by experts.
Ith - I failed to thank you for your compliment (That I am a treasure that should be shared). I appreciate that sentiment very much.
Sometimes I feel that maybe people should best admire that treasure from a distance though - like the Grand Canyon. Get too close and you'll fall in!
And then as I'm typing this, my daughter called me crying about her relationship with her boyfriend (who she says is just like me). Fifteen minutes later, I think I made her feel better. I know it made me feel good knowing that she'd care to hear my advice.
Sometimes I feel that maybe people should best admire that treasure from a distance though - like the Grand Canyon. Get too close and you'll fall in!
And then as I'm typing this, my daughter called me crying about her relationship with her boyfriend (who she says is just like me). Fifteen minutes later, I think I made her feel better. I know it made me feel good knowing that she'd care to hear my advice.
"Willoughby. Next stop is Willoughby."
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Just Like Honey...
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That's actually a really strange coincidence, 52. I knew when you started with the INFJ, etc. thing. The Myers-Briggs Type Indicators - I actually took that test when I was still in high school, and went on to work for the place that gave me the test (an employment agency). So for a while, I was handing out these tests to people. I can't remember which personality type I was classified as, but I will read through this stuff again 
. I try to devote at least an hour a day to Wikipedia-ing. If that's what they call it now.
. I try to devote at least an hour a day to Wikipedia-ing. If that's what they call it now.I'd rather be a gear in a big, deterministic, physical machine than just some random swerving.
This Myers-Briggs stuff is opening up my eyes and also my wife's. My natural way of being with her is the exact opposite of her natural way of being. In letters, I'm INTP and she is ESFJ. (This is a good site that keeps it all relatively unscientific: http://www.personalitypage.com/ ). The fact is, we dont' think alike at all - she can't understand me and I can't understand her. It's a REAL mess when you get down to the tendencies of each type and how they clash.
But making it worse is that the T part (thinking) and its opposite (F for feeling) seem to be situational for me. I shifted in to "F" mode big time after seeing LiT (and no jokes about "F" mode and Scarlett). Every now and then I get like an INFP, but not with my wife. I'm almost embarrassed to be an INFP around her - and when she realizes I am with someone esle, it freaks her out.
So why? And what does it say about the people I'm an INFP person with? Are they fulfilling a need I can't get otherwise? Or are they fulfilling that need from a safer distance? And am I setting myself for extreme dificulty living this way - since INFPs are VERY sensitive to criticism and very often hear it when it isn't even there.
Well, these are questions for counseling - and they get tied up in the largest issue we're dealing with.
(It's amazing to find your type and then read the descrition; it's reads like an autobiography. My T/F side was very weak when I took the test, indicatiing I could be one or the other or both. But my Introverted sie was strong, as was the N - intuitive, and P-perceiving.)
But making it worse is that the T part (thinking) and its opposite (F for feeling) seem to be situational for me. I shifted in to "F" mode big time after seeing LiT (and no jokes about "F" mode and Scarlett). Every now and then I get like an INFP, but not with my wife. I'm almost embarrassed to be an INFP around her - and when she realizes I am with someone esle, it freaks her out.
So why? And what does it say about the people I'm an INFP person with? Are they fulfilling a need I can't get otherwise? Or are they fulfilling that need from a safer distance? And am I setting myself for extreme dificulty living this way - since INFPs are VERY sensitive to criticism and very often hear it when it isn't even there.
Well, these are questions for counseling - and they get tied up in the largest issue we're dealing with.
(It's amazing to find your type and then read the descrition; it's reads like an autobiography. My T/F side was very weak when I took the test, indicatiing I could be one or the other or both. But my Introverted sie was strong, as was the N - intuitive, and P-perceiving.)
"Willoughby. Next stop is Willoughby."
I'm an ENFJ52FM wrote:This Myers-Briggs stuff is opening up my eyes and also my wife's. My natural way of being with her is the exact opposite of her natural way of being. In letters, I'm INTP and she is ESFJ. (This is a good site that keeps it all relatively unscientific: http://www.personalitypage.com/ ). The fact is, we dont' think alike at all - she can't understand me and I can't understand her. It's a REAL mess when you get down to the tendencies of each type and how they clash.
But making it worse is that the T part (thinking) and its opposite (F for feeling) seem to be situational for me. I shifted in to "F" mode big time after seeing LiT (and no jokes about "F" mode and Scarlett). Every now and then I get like an INFP, but not with my wife. I'm almost embarrassed to be an INFP around her - and when she realizes I am with someone esle, it freaks her out.
So why? And what does it say about the people I'm an INFP person with? Are they fulfilling a need I can't get otherwise? Or are they fulfilling that need from a safer distance? And am I setting myself for extreme dificulty living this way - since INFPs are VERY sensitive to criticism and very often hear it when it isn't even there.
Well, these are questions for counseling - and they get tied up in the largest issue we're dealing with.
(It's amazing to find your type and then read the descrition; it's reads like an autobiography. My T/F side was very weak when I took the test, indicatiing I could be one or the other or both. But my Introverted sie was strong, as was the N - intuitive, and P-perceiving.)
I need to share this, though it’s a bit personal. (OK – since when am I shy about posting personal things? Well, in this case it involves another person, but circumstances dictate I either say it here or not at all. And the second option is simply not OK.)
I’ve had a few sessions with my counselor by myself, and this last one showed how much he really gets me. My wife and I have a long way to go, as I’ve said, but his insight and way of describing things gives me confidence that I’m on the right track. How my wife adjusts to this when she finds out how he feels will be a difficult situation, but it’s significant that he feels the way he does.
This is necessarily out of context for most people reading this – though if you went back over my posts (not recommended) you’d understand.
Anyway, he said the following – pretty much word for word as best as I can remember:
“I believe things happen for a reason. The movie was your epiphany, and then she was your angel – giving you the support and strength to finally break through the obstacles you had and actually do something to heal your relationship with your wife. A very significant opportunity was presented to you, and to your credit you seized it rather than letting it go by.”
I’ve felt and said the same thing to this “angel” – but I really felt wonderful hearing someone else get it.
Happy Thanksgiving, Ith. And thank you!
I’ve had a few sessions with my counselor by myself, and this last one showed how much he really gets me. My wife and I have a long way to go, as I’ve said, but his insight and way of describing things gives me confidence that I’m on the right track. How my wife adjusts to this when she finds out how he feels will be a difficult situation, but it’s significant that he feels the way he does.
This is necessarily out of context for most people reading this – though if you went back over my posts (not recommended) you’d understand.
Anyway, he said the following – pretty much word for word as best as I can remember:
“I believe things happen for a reason. The movie was your epiphany, and then she was your angel – giving you the support and strength to finally break through the obstacles you had and actually do something to heal your relationship with your wife. A very significant opportunity was presented to you, and to your credit you seized it rather than letting it go by.”
I’ve felt and said the same thing to this “angel” – but I really felt wonderful hearing someone else get it.
Happy Thanksgiving, Ith. And thank you!
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well. You probably know that I am as thrilled that someone else understood as you are.52FM wrote:I need to share this, though it’s a bit personal. (OK – since when am I shy about posting personal things? Well, in this case it involves another person, but circumstances dictate I either say it here or not at all. And the second option is simply not OK.)
I’ve had a few sessions with my counselor by myself, and this last one showed how much he really gets me. My wife and I have a long way to go, as I’ve said, but his insight and way of describing things gives me confidence that I’m on the right track. How my wife adjusts to this when she finds out how he feels will be a difficult situation, but it’s significant that he feels the way he does.
This is necessarily out of context for most people reading this – though if you went back over my posts (not recommended) you’d understand.
Anyway, he said the following – pretty much word for word as best as I can remember:
“I believe things happen for a reason. The movie was your epiphany, and then she was your angel – giving you the support and strength to finally break through the obstacles you had and actually do something to heal your relationship with your wife. A very significant opportunity was presented to you, and to your credit you seized it rather than letting it go by.”
I’ve felt and said the same thing to this “angel” – but I really felt wonderful hearing someone else get it.
Happy Thanksgiving, Ith. And thank you!
Regrets –
How does one deal with an issue that is vital to your personal well-being, but causes extreme distress to your partner? (This is a rhetorical question.) Especially when that distress has a snowball effect that ends up putting her in the hospital for a few days?
When a situation gets that serious, dealing with it directly is no longer optional. My guilt and tears over what I indirectly caused leads us to take a hard look at what has happened.
Acquiescing on the issues remaining is my habitual way of dealing with things. But habits and expectations and desires are changing for both of us. Seeing my willingness to acquiesce made her see a responsibility for her to get to the root cause rather than relying on the old habit of letting me take all the responsibility.
And so in my last private session I explained all this to the counselor, who saw it as an encouraging sign of progress – despite the incredible stress and guilt I am still feeling. I don’t know if we’re ready to tackle what comes next but since putting it off has literally turned unhealthy, we simply have to.
I’m emotionally trapped now and I know it’s unlikely I’m going to come out of this completely satisfied. Something will likely have to give. If my wife can’t change, I’m certainly not going to let her suffer for my own self-fulfillment.
I’ve made too many mistakes over this that can’t be undone or even discussed. I’ve gained so much even though I think I’ve already lost something dear to me. In my worst case scenario, I will never be able to talk that one out – ironic since that’s how my “Charlotte” situation ended. The big difference is I’ll come out of this strong rather than weak. Anyway, talking so much apparently is what my problem has always been – not knowing when to just stop. I usually end up making people mistrust me; and I'm beginning to understand why and take responsilibity for it.
This may be another case of talking too much, but writing here is cathartic. I certainly don’t expect any replies. My logic side tells me to feel good overall despite the emotional turmoil that is my brain these days. I like my logic side a lot, it never fails me. But my emotional side is where my greatest experiences come from. Even when they end up with regrets and sadness, I'm somehow better for the experience.
How does one deal with an issue that is vital to your personal well-being, but causes extreme distress to your partner? (This is a rhetorical question.) Especially when that distress has a snowball effect that ends up putting her in the hospital for a few days?
When a situation gets that serious, dealing with it directly is no longer optional. My guilt and tears over what I indirectly caused leads us to take a hard look at what has happened.
Acquiescing on the issues remaining is my habitual way of dealing with things. But habits and expectations and desires are changing for both of us. Seeing my willingness to acquiesce made her see a responsibility for her to get to the root cause rather than relying on the old habit of letting me take all the responsibility.
And so in my last private session I explained all this to the counselor, who saw it as an encouraging sign of progress – despite the incredible stress and guilt I am still feeling. I don’t know if we’re ready to tackle what comes next but since putting it off has literally turned unhealthy, we simply have to.
I’m emotionally trapped now and I know it’s unlikely I’m going to come out of this completely satisfied. Something will likely have to give. If my wife can’t change, I’m certainly not going to let her suffer for my own self-fulfillment.
I’ve made too many mistakes over this that can’t be undone or even discussed. I’ve gained so much even though I think I’ve already lost something dear to me. In my worst case scenario, I will never be able to talk that one out – ironic since that’s how my “Charlotte” situation ended. The big difference is I’ll come out of this strong rather than weak. Anyway, talking so much apparently is what my problem has always been – not knowing when to just stop. I usually end up making people mistrust me; and I'm beginning to understand why and take responsilibity for it.
This may be another case of talking too much, but writing here is cathartic. I certainly don’t expect any replies. My logic side tells me to feel good overall despite the emotional turmoil that is my brain these days. I like my logic side a lot, it never fails me. But my emotional side is where my greatest experiences come from. Even when they end up with regrets and sadness, I'm somehow better for the experience.
I understand that you can't relay why she was in the hospital, but eek, I just feel like I'm hanging out here imagining the worse!
I hope she is back home now, and feeling better.
Relationships involve some compromises, just remember the things that are non-negotiable. Love, dignity, respect. If you can give and receive those, I believe you two can make this work.
I hope she is back home now, and feeling better.
Relationships involve some compromises, just remember the things that are non-negotiable. Love, dignity, respect. If you can give and receive those, I believe you two can make this work.
Long story. She is home - spent two days; well, almost three. She is not 100% but is back to work and is able to drive and pretty much back to normal. It stemmed from stress, then insomnia, which caused more stress etc until something had to give. In effect, I'm causing the stress as we continue to deal with issues we have rather than dropping them or giving in.
We can make this work because the love and the respect are there. This incident underscored the lack of dignity I feel and in reality I beleive she saw that in my reaction to her illness. Somehow, this time it wasn't acceptable to her for me to just give in - which I did out of guilt and concern and panic for how much worse it could actually get for her health wise.
She has a problem - but I'm not going to watch her deteriorate before my eyes just becasue I'm right in insisting she deals with it. Happily - it seems she won't ask me to jsut give in without her trying to understand herself. I offered to just give in - and she actually thought it through and decided that was no solution. Progress - the VERY hard way.
I have this gnawing feeling that I will win the war so to speak but then find out it was no longer what it was because of the mess I made in trying to get there in the first place. I know it's unfair to write that without expanation and even if I did there is nothing anyone coudl or would say. It's late and I guess I'm thinking out loud. Maybe I will someday get rid of all the guilt, or maybe some day it won't matter to me (though I don't beleive that at all - after all the way I screwed up the Charlotte aituation stayed with me for 17 years until I coudl finally let it go. But I'll be 55 in January - I may not have another 17 years.)
Well, first things first; still much work to do. I can't stop now - even though I'm getting so tired of it all. I just worry that in the end I'll just really be a selfish jerk; when it's over I'll be satisfied but friendless and full of myself with my wife having a cronic health problems. But I will be self-fulfilled - and lonely because all my close friends eventually will come to mistrust me.
Well, at least I have a good counselor to get me through all that.
We can make this work because the love and the respect are there. This incident underscored the lack of dignity I feel and in reality I beleive she saw that in my reaction to her illness. Somehow, this time it wasn't acceptable to her for me to just give in - which I did out of guilt and concern and panic for how much worse it could actually get for her health wise.
She has a problem - but I'm not going to watch her deteriorate before my eyes just becasue I'm right in insisting she deals with it. Happily - it seems she won't ask me to jsut give in without her trying to understand herself. I offered to just give in - and she actually thought it through and decided that was no solution. Progress - the VERY hard way.
I have this gnawing feeling that I will win the war so to speak but then find out it was no longer what it was because of the mess I made in trying to get there in the first place. I know it's unfair to write that without expanation and even if I did there is nothing anyone coudl or would say. It's late and I guess I'm thinking out loud. Maybe I will someday get rid of all the guilt, or maybe some day it won't matter to me (though I don't beleive that at all - after all the way I screwed up the Charlotte aituation stayed with me for 17 years until I coudl finally let it go. But I'll be 55 in January - I may not have another 17 years.)
Well, first things first; still much work to do. I can't stop now - even though I'm getting so tired of it all. I just worry that in the end I'll just really be a selfish jerk; when it's over I'll be satisfied but friendless and full of myself with my wife having a cronic health problems. But I will be self-fulfilled - and lonely because all my close friends eventually will come to mistrust me.
Well, at least I have a good counselor to get me through all that.
There is always a fine line between selfish and caring for one's self. I am in the grey area now. Of course, the irony is my wife is in that same grey area herself. There is no real compromise on this last issue. I've been trying to find a "win-win" outlook for it, and there isn't any. So from an objective theoretical perspective - this is fascinating to me. From an emotional viewpoint, I'm churning up inside. (Though maybe part of that is from the Costco chili I had last night; hard to tell.)
However, I've been thinking through my feelings and bouncing off some thoughts carefully with someone I trust who has been rather blunt with me. It's tough, because the issues are so detailed and complex and confusing. But I take what I hear in that context and try to trust the instincts that I've re-developed over the last year or more.
My conclusion? For as abstract and logical of a person as I am, there are times when I need to hear specific things so obsessively that I end up losing myself. Times like that I need to be told "you're getting to be too much" - back off for a while.
The problem is - I don't always even hear THAT when in effect it's said to me. That is, it's almost like I need to hear those precise words. And then I realize all I had to do is become less self-absorbed and realize it's already been said - as strongly as the person felt they could, but not too blunt for fear I'd break.
That's what happened with "Charlotte". She told me plently of times and I kept pushing until she felt I was a creep. She closed the door completely (but then reopened it for her own selfish reasons - which led to a disaster that I never disclosed here. Maybe someday.)
I promised myself that I would never get like that. I'd pay attention if I started to get to be too much. I see now that I get so vulnerable that only a heartless person would tell me directly to back off. But everyone has a limit.
I'm not a selfish jerk and I'm not a creep. I'm a very confused man that is looking for more out of life than maybe he has a right to expect. And at times I probably become so difficult to understand (with my INTP way of thinking) that I become very misunderstood. (Like a lot of this is probably too interwoven to get.)
My motivation right now is simple - I've gained so much that I just don't want to lose ANY of it at the end. I've made mistakes - well, at least one that I'm very conscious of and feel a large amount of sorrow and guilt over. That's all I can do for now and maybe ever. Express it. Forgiveness is not something one can count on, nor have the opportunity to earn or re-earn (along with trust.)
So - while I'd like to feel more settled, I am going to go out on a limb emotionally speaking and rewind mentally to a better time; and trust that if circumstances were right, everything woudl get worked out. Trust that who I am inside - not how pathetic I can sometimes appear - is how everyone who truly knows me ultimately sees me.
And continue on!
(As I spend the evening snow-blowing and shovelling. Well, as Lucy once said "There's nothing like a little physical pain to keep your mind off your emotional problems!")
However, I've been thinking through my feelings and bouncing off some thoughts carefully with someone I trust who has been rather blunt with me. It's tough, because the issues are so detailed and complex and confusing. But I take what I hear in that context and try to trust the instincts that I've re-developed over the last year or more.
My conclusion? For as abstract and logical of a person as I am, there are times when I need to hear specific things so obsessively that I end up losing myself. Times like that I need to be told "you're getting to be too much" - back off for a while.
The problem is - I don't always even hear THAT when in effect it's said to me. That is, it's almost like I need to hear those precise words. And then I realize all I had to do is become less self-absorbed and realize it's already been said - as strongly as the person felt they could, but not too blunt for fear I'd break.
That's what happened with "Charlotte". She told me plently of times and I kept pushing until she felt I was a creep. She closed the door completely (but then reopened it for her own selfish reasons - which led to a disaster that I never disclosed here. Maybe someday.)
I promised myself that I would never get like that. I'd pay attention if I started to get to be too much. I see now that I get so vulnerable that only a heartless person would tell me directly to back off. But everyone has a limit.
I'm not a selfish jerk and I'm not a creep. I'm a very confused man that is looking for more out of life than maybe he has a right to expect. And at times I probably become so difficult to understand (with my INTP way of thinking) that I become very misunderstood. (Like a lot of this is probably too interwoven to get.)
My motivation right now is simple - I've gained so much that I just don't want to lose ANY of it at the end. I've made mistakes - well, at least one that I'm very conscious of and feel a large amount of sorrow and guilt over. That's all I can do for now and maybe ever. Express it. Forgiveness is not something one can count on, nor have the opportunity to earn or re-earn (along with trust.)
So - while I'd like to feel more settled, I am going to go out on a limb emotionally speaking and rewind mentally to a better time; and trust that if circumstances were right, everything woudl get worked out. Trust that who I am inside - not how pathetic I can sometimes appear - is how everyone who truly knows me ultimately sees me.
And continue on!
(As I spend the evening snow-blowing and shovelling. Well, as Lucy once said "There's nothing like a little physical pain to keep your mind off your emotional problems!")
A quick update in case anyone is interested.
First joint session last night in about month. It went far better than I expected. Our counselor is "such a rock star" (as one of my students blurted out about me in class a few weeks ago - and for the first time as a college teacher I burst out laughing, which the class as a whole joined in on - but I digress).
He really sees my point of view - but a large part of that is the lengths and depths I've gone to explain myself. And he really seems to know my wife and sees many of the things about her that I see but she either does not or denies. It was tough for her, but in the end she seemed OK with it. In fact, I think maybe my seeing we are moving in a direction that is settling to me helped her understand the value of what he said.
We left at a point of major disagreement and our counselors suggestion on reconciling it rejected by both my wife and I. "We have a long way to go" he said as we walked out. But she and I are moving together on it - that would have been unthinkable six months ago.
Can someone really feel they have complete freedom to choose (non-harmful) activities or friendships for themselves - and at the same time know that certain choices are so (unreasonably) objectionable to your partner that she feels she needs to get support from every person close to her - including our children? That wasn't even a hypothetical question since the answer is clearly no. That's not freedom - that's a form of attempted control (at a minimum) and actually is almost vindictive.
But the groundwork has been laid down finally.
First joint session last night in about month. It went far better than I expected. Our counselor is "such a rock star" (as one of my students blurted out about me in class a few weeks ago - and for the first time as a college teacher I burst out laughing, which the class as a whole joined in on - but I digress).
He really sees my point of view - but a large part of that is the lengths and depths I've gone to explain myself. And he really seems to know my wife and sees many of the things about her that I see but she either does not or denies. It was tough for her, but in the end she seemed OK with it. In fact, I think maybe my seeing we are moving in a direction that is settling to me helped her understand the value of what he said.
We left at a point of major disagreement and our counselors suggestion on reconciling it rejected by both my wife and I. "We have a long way to go" he said as we walked out. But she and I are moving together on it - that would have been unthinkable six months ago.
Can someone really feel they have complete freedom to choose (non-harmful) activities or friendships for themselves - and at the same time know that certain choices are so (unreasonably) objectionable to your partner that she feels she needs to get support from every person close to her - including our children? That wasn't even a hypothetical question since the answer is clearly no. That's not freedom - that's a form of attempted control (at a minimum) and actually is almost vindictive.
But the groundwork has been laid down finally.
Thank you so much Ith!
Thanks also to the board members for putting up with (or quietly ignoring) my venting.
My emotions are all over the place ("No! Really??" I can hear people saing.) I'm fighting with at least three aspects of all this in my mind; so my posts probably seems just a step one side or the other of bizarre.
I just need a friendly place to hang my hat and feel welcome. It helps a great deal. It's going to get ugly soon I can tell. Ironically ugly - as my wife now wishes we were seeing a female counselor instead and has doubts about the one she herself recommended becuase she feels she is "losing".
Obviously, I don't see this as win/lose; if one or the other loses then we both do. I know that the counselor feels the same. I don't think my wife wants to "win" at my expense - but she can switch to that mode as a defense when she feels she is "losing". So we struggle as she is in denial about so much.
Hopfully we will find some peace over the holidays. I'm trying my best.
As I also deal with my daughter's incredibly surprising controlling/insecurities about her boyfriend (they are on breakup #3 in about 18 months; the first two were hers; this one is his due to said surprising attitudes. Happily, I've been able to help - she said today that she always feels much better after talking to me because I'm able to say things logically and directly. I don't think she realizes their issues are simply a minor leagure version of her parents'.
Thanks also to the board members for putting up with (or quietly ignoring) my venting.
My emotions are all over the place ("No! Really??" I can hear people saing.) I'm fighting with at least three aspects of all this in my mind; so my posts probably seems just a step one side or the other of bizarre.
I just need a friendly place to hang my hat and feel welcome. It helps a great deal. It's going to get ugly soon I can tell. Ironically ugly - as my wife now wishes we were seeing a female counselor instead and has doubts about the one she herself recommended becuase she feels she is "losing".
Obviously, I don't see this as win/lose; if one or the other loses then we both do. I know that the counselor feels the same. I don't think my wife wants to "win" at my expense - but she can switch to that mode as a defense when she feels she is "losing". So we struggle as she is in denial about so much.
Hopfully we will find some peace over the holidays. I'm trying my best.
As I also deal with my daughter's incredibly surprising controlling/insecurities about her boyfriend (they are on breakup #3 in about 18 months; the first two were hers; this one is his due to said surprising attitudes. Happily, I've been able to help - she said today that she always feels much better after talking to me because I'm able to say things logically and directly. I don't think she realizes their issues are simply a minor leagure version of her parents'.