It was a horrible weekend. I think the issue is pretty basic - after all the stress we've had in our relationship over so many years, I really don't like being with her.
She is trying to change so many things - and yet we have so little in common that most conversations turn to arguements; and those arguements get downright ugly; I'm being honest about my feelings - but it's not what she wants to hear nor what I expected would happen.
So I hope we get somewhere over this at counseling this week.
No need for anyone to respond - I know I have support here.
A quick 'vent'
Moderator: Bob
It's unrealistic for your wife to expect you to change. Therapy should be about bridging the differences and magnifying the good
Would it be so awful to get divorced? I hated to see my parents fight when I was a kid and to be honest, I was very impressed that my stepdad stuck it out (my mom is really dreadful when she gets mad). Much of their problems stemmed from my dad's small business and she was his righthand partner in it. If they should ever get a divorce, I would not hold it against them, nor would the process scar me emotionally for life. And I would not have minded them divorcing when I was in high school or college. Divorce is very common in the US and in today's culture. And at your age, it's not too late for either you or your wife to find love again. My boyfriend's mom remarried two years ago, I think that she's just turned 50. And she and her new husband are very happy together. Meanwhile, my boyfriend's father is on his third wife, number two passed away suddenly a few years back. But the dating scene for people in their fifties is very active.
I am actually not telling you to get a divorce, but your wife should be more realistic about life and what is fair for both of you. Life is too short to get all wound up about this crap.
Would it be so awful to get divorced? I hated to see my parents fight when I was a kid and to be honest, I was very impressed that my stepdad stuck it out (my mom is really dreadful when she gets mad). Much of their problems stemmed from my dad's small business and she was his righthand partner in it. If they should ever get a divorce, I would not hold it against them, nor would the process scar me emotionally for life. And I would not have minded them divorcing when I was in high school or college. Divorce is very common in the US and in today's culture. And at your age, it's not too late for either you or your wife to find love again. My boyfriend's mom remarried two years ago, I think that she's just turned 50. And she and her new husband are very happy together. Meanwhile, my boyfriend's father is on his third wife, number two passed away suddenly a few years back. But the dating scene for people in their fifties is very active.
I am actually not telling you to get a divorce, but your wife should be more realistic about life and what is fair for both of you. Life is too short to get all wound up about this crap.
Divorce is an option I've raised several times - but since she is willing to see the counseling through (after fighting it for so long) I've not metioned that.
By the way, when I said she is trying to change so many things- I meant that she is trying to change the things that SHE does that we've discussed. A lot of the change is real and sincere- but there is a lot that is her "trying" to change. For example, in anger she blurtherd out once "I'm sick of trying to change things for you." In other words - she's not changing becasue she realizes she's wrong - she's doing it "for me" - and she's sick of it.
Anyway - while divorce is an option, it would be very painful for all five of us (3 kids included) so it really has to be a last resort.
A good friend of mine would often tease me with a Gloria Gaynor link or quote . I only mention it becasue (damn her!
) I always have that song running in my head whenever I type something about my marital issues on this board!
Yes- I will survive!
By the way, when I said she is trying to change so many things- I meant that she is trying to change the things that SHE does that we've discussed. A lot of the change is real and sincere- but there is a lot that is her "trying" to change. For example, in anger she blurtherd out once "I'm sick of trying to change things for you." In other words - she's not changing becasue she realizes she's wrong - she's doing it "for me" - and she's sick of it.
Anyway - while divorce is an option, it would be very painful for all five of us (3 kids included) so it really has to be a last resort.
A good friend of mine would often tease me with a Gloria Gaynor link or quote . I only mention it becasue (damn her!
) I always have that song running in my head whenever I type something about my marital issues on this board!Yes- I will survive!
Does your wife have some good friends? I was thinking that one person can't ever be the perfect and only companion for another. But one can have other friends to help provide whatever is lacking in the significant other.
Not the same situation, but I find myself shopping on eBay for things that I feel my boyfriend needs. Things like work clothing, a good nylon toolbag for his equipment etc... and I do shop carefully for the bargains. So on one hand, he loves these additions to his life, but on the other, he is very frugal and would never buy them for himself. So my purchases become little constant thank you presents for the work he does on my cars and the house. And I don't do any big gifts at Christmas or for his birthday.
My family noticed about my middle sister, she loves to give gifts and do things for people, but afterwards, she likes to remind us of her having given us these gifts. She's gotten a lot better over the years, but I from her I learned that when you do something for someone or give them a present, it must be with no strings attached. The gift must be sincere and come from the heart. Now if the recipient doesn't give back and is only a "taker" and it bothers you, then move on and find a better friend. Some people enjoy giving so much that they don't care if it's not reciprocated. One feels like royalty being a "giver"... lol And it's also important that the recipient not be demanding of being given to. I feel that I give to all of my friends a certain amount, some more than others... then I pause to see its effect. As long as these people are good-hearted, not selfish or greedy and are a positive influence back, I continue to be a supportive friend.
Speaking of give and take, I was at lunch with a couple of good friends when a woman (sitting by herself) cut into our conversation on politics. At first, we didn't mind, but she was very opinionated and thought she was right. So after a few minutes, one of my friends cut her off mid-sentence and said "excuse me, but I have pegged you a talker, and not a listener. And therefore, our conversation is ended." Sometimes, you have to take drastic steps to break the cycle.
Not the same situation, but I find myself shopping on eBay for things that I feel my boyfriend needs. Things like work clothing, a good nylon toolbag for his equipment etc... and I do shop carefully for the bargains. So on one hand, he loves these additions to his life, but on the other, he is very frugal and would never buy them for himself. So my purchases become little constant thank you presents for the work he does on my cars and the house. And I don't do any big gifts at Christmas or for his birthday.
My family noticed about my middle sister, she loves to give gifts and do things for people, but afterwards, she likes to remind us of her having given us these gifts. She's gotten a lot better over the years, but I from her I learned that when you do something for someone or give them a present, it must be with no strings attached. The gift must be sincere and come from the heart. Now if the recipient doesn't give back and is only a "taker" and it bothers you, then move on and find a better friend. Some people enjoy giving so much that they don't care if it's not reciprocated. One feels like royalty being a "giver"... lol And it's also important that the recipient not be demanding of being given to. I feel that I give to all of my friends a certain amount, some more than others... then I pause to see its effect. As long as these people are good-hearted, not selfish or greedy and are a positive influence back, I continue to be a supportive friend.
Speaking of give and take, I was at lunch with a couple of good friends when a woman (sitting by herself) cut into our conversation on politics. At first, we didn't mind, but she was very opinionated and thought she was right. So after a few minutes, one of my friends cut her off mid-sentence and said "excuse me, but I have pegged you a talker, and not a listener. And therefore, our conversation is ended." Sometimes, you have to take drastic steps to break the cycle.
Your children are adults. Any initial pain that they may feel should a divorce occur, they will get over. It is not the end of the world.
Would you want your sons or daughter to stay in a relationship just so it didn't cause you pain? Would you want them to stay in a relationship just so it didn't cause their children pain?
How you and your wife handle your relationship is really the only true model of what a marriage is supposed to be that they have. You have already seen the parallels in the your daughters relationship with her boyfriend. You have done everything that you can to try and make this work. You have shown them when you make a commitment to someone, you do your best to make it work.
I hope things work out through the counseling, but her changing to make you happy is not going to make a lasting improvement to your relationship, you both seem to recognize this.
At some point you need to accept each other for the inherent people that you are, the good and the bad, or move on.
Would you want your sons or daughter to stay in a relationship just so it didn't cause you pain? Would you want them to stay in a relationship just so it didn't cause their children pain?
How you and your wife handle your relationship is really the only true model of what a marriage is supposed to be that they have. You have already seen the parallels in the your daughters relationship with her boyfriend. You have done everything that you can to try and make this work. You have shown them when you make a commitment to someone, you do your best to make it work.
I hope things work out through the counseling, but her changing to make you happy is not going to make a lasting improvement to your relationship, you both seem to recognize this.
At some point you need to accept each other for the inherent people that you are, the good and the bad, or move on.
Thanks, Ith. Last night's session was hopefully a move in the right direction. We are each going to compile a short list of issues we feel are central to our unhappiness. Then we will share it with each other and discuss at our next meeting.
What is amzing to me still is that in fighting going to counseling, my wife swore she had NO issues with me whatsoever. Now she will have a list. However, I suspect the list will contain annoyances - not deep issues. And the annoyances will be things that have grown over the years from her reactions to my reactions to her reactions etc going back 37 years.
Last night we reached an intersting point - every verbal statement she makes I often - due to bad experience - take in a negative way. That's already been discussed. But for the first time, I realized that she does the same thing to me regarding NON-verbal clues. I stressed that three times in the session becuase I dont' think she got it. Still not sure - but the counsellor did.
So we come to the deep issues - why can't we lose these fears and assumptions? I will have my list ready, with a prime example that we still may not be ready to discuss - but it is the proverbial 800 pound gorilla that simply isn't going away as an issue. In summary - it's TRUST - or lack thereof. Which is insulting and demeaning to me - and yet I'm supposed to act in a loving manner to a woman who will not face why she feels (in her words) that in certain issues, she needs to protect me from myself. Who acknowledged just a couple weeks ago that despite saying it many times in the last year - she is NOT over the "Charlotte" incident - and still fears in some way that I could find myself doing it again.
Last night I said that the number 1 immediate problem is that whenever we spend time alone - we argue. And the arguing often stems from her being upset at me for not being more talkative or me making her feel shut out or dumb etc. I said that may be - and it's an issue (and will be on my list too, by the way.) But if she's going to visably and vocally ANGRY about it, all it does it make it LESS likely I will want to spend time with her. I said that twice - and emphasized it. The more we argue, the less likely I'm going to want to keep trying to work this out. I am NOT going to live my life being uncomfortable in my own house with my own wife. The implication of that statement seemed to hit the counselor, but not my wife.
My wife and I decided to speed up the pace of these sessions by these lists. Ith, I know that you fell the counselor is only a guide - and I suspect you are correct. Maybe it took us to feel this impatience in order for him to realize we're ready to get into the heart of all issues. He knows us, he knows our communication styles, he knows our differences, (he sort of chatised me for being so mathematical and specific in interpreting words; not really, but he tried to get me to see that by taking words so literally I contribute to communication problems. )
Anyway - the next session may be dynamite.
What is amzing to me still is that in fighting going to counseling, my wife swore she had NO issues with me whatsoever. Now she will have a list. However, I suspect the list will contain annoyances - not deep issues. And the annoyances will be things that have grown over the years from her reactions to my reactions to her reactions etc going back 37 years.
Last night we reached an intersting point - every verbal statement she makes I often - due to bad experience - take in a negative way. That's already been discussed. But for the first time, I realized that she does the same thing to me regarding NON-verbal clues. I stressed that three times in the session becuase I dont' think she got it. Still not sure - but the counsellor did.
So we come to the deep issues - why can't we lose these fears and assumptions? I will have my list ready, with a prime example that we still may not be ready to discuss - but it is the proverbial 800 pound gorilla that simply isn't going away as an issue. In summary - it's TRUST - or lack thereof. Which is insulting and demeaning to me - and yet I'm supposed to act in a loving manner to a woman who will not face why she feels (in her words) that in certain issues, she needs to protect me from myself. Who acknowledged just a couple weeks ago that despite saying it many times in the last year - she is NOT over the "Charlotte" incident - and still fears in some way that I could find myself doing it again.
Last night I said that the number 1 immediate problem is that whenever we spend time alone - we argue. And the arguing often stems from her being upset at me for not being more talkative or me making her feel shut out or dumb etc. I said that may be - and it's an issue (and will be on my list too, by the way.) But if she's going to visably and vocally ANGRY about it, all it does it make it LESS likely I will want to spend time with her. I said that twice - and emphasized it. The more we argue, the less likely I'm going to want to keep trying to work this out. I am NOT going to live my life being uncomfortable in my own house with my own wife. The implication of that statement seemed to hit the counselor, but not my wife.
My wife and I decided to speed up the pace of these sessions by these lists. Ith, I know that you fell the counselor is only a guide - and I suspect you are correct. Maybe it took us to feel this impatience in order for him to realize we're ready to get into the heart of all issues. He knows us, he knows our communication styles, he knows our differences, (he sort of chatised me for being so mathematical and specific in interpreting words; not really, but he tried to get me to see that by taking words so literally I contribute to communication problems. )
Anyway - the next session may be dynamite.
And yesterday, one of my friends emailed me. He is now officially divorced. He is 51 and while they have no children, his wife is 10 years his senior and not capable of supporting herself. They were legally separated for about three years. He lives in CT, but she moved to CA. He bought her a condo there, and about a year later, she was behind on her income and real estate taxes. He is still very fond of her, but they grew apart. She was also addicted to shopping. I suspect that he will still have to bail her out financially once in a while.
Divorce still says to me "I give up". I'm not there yet. I may be at some point; in fact, if things are the same say two years from now I know I will be there. But we still have to face the key issues that we have pushed off for months.
The fact is - no one (not even my kids) will truly understnad all I went through. It will come down I know to my wife over-simplifying the whole thing to her (very large) network of acquaitences - and I'll just have to accept that. She'll say "he cjanged; he got weird; he wanted to live his life so very differently than 'normal' people do; he has a real mental issue he won't deal with." And all her 'friends' will feel sorry for her. (I put that in quotes because she has said - and took back - and is now saying again - that she only has one friend. The rest are just people she knows - even though one she has known for 50 years and another for 40. But these non-friends will be her network of support and they will comfort her and none of them will tell her she was wrong in any way - because she only keeps in touch with women who are very much like her in how they control their husbands.
She has said it's wrong and she sees it - but there is MY trust issue unfortunately. Does she really mean it - or is it what she thinks she needs to say to please me?
The fact is - no one (not even my kids) will truly understnad all I went through. It will come down I know to my wife over-simplifying the whole thing to her (very large) network of acquaitences - and I'll just have to accept that. She'll say "he cjanged; he got weird; he wanted to live his life so very differently than 'normal' people do; he has a real mental issue he won't deal with." And all her 'friends' will feel sorry for her. (I put that in quotes because she has said - and took back - and is now saying again - that she only has one friend. The rest are just people she knows - even though one she has known for 50 years and another for 40. But these non-friends will be her network of support and they will comfort her and none of them will tell her she was wrong in any way - because she only keeps in touch with women who are very much like her in how they control their husbands.
She has said it's wrong and she sees it - but there is MY trust issue unfortunately. Does she really mean it - or is it what she thinks she needs to say to please me?
Breaking a behavioral pattern is really really difficult. My previous boyfriend was Jewish and I feel that towards the end, we were in a bad cycle of verbal negativity. And I felt that our speech patterns were heading in the same direction as his parents were bickers. They did love each other, but they liked to pick also. I don't think that he was bothered by the way we spoke to each other because he was used to it as a family trait. But as an outsider, it really bothered me. We couldn't break the cycle, so that is one of the reasons I broke up with him. There was this kvetching thing they all did also.
My cousin in NYC worked in an office where she was the only Jewish person (she noticed this because every Jewish holiday, she was the only one working) and she was frustrated that her co-workers would complain about a situation, she would offer advice (she's full of practical commonsense), they would ignore it and the problems would continue. I told her that complaining/venting was an art form to them, and if one complained, then another would try to top their story with a worse situation. They actually don't even want to solve the problem... but I think that they like to vent, then of course they get sympathy back from their friends and they like the attention.
Please don't think me prejudiced, but in the work that I do, there are a lot of Jewish people present and there are just a lot of them in the Northeast. I have many good Jewish friends and I love them dearly. However I am a people watcher and I tend to notice behavioral patterns.
52FM - About the trust issue. Have you ever thought about renewing your marriage vows with your wife? Is there something or someplace that you really consider sacred that you could use to take renew your vows with or at?
My cousin in NYC worked in an office where she was the only Jewish person (she noticed this because every Jewish holiday, she was the only one working) and she was frustrated that her co-workers would complain about a situation, she would offer advice (she's full of practical commonsense), they would ignore it and the problems would continue. I told her that complaining/venting was an art form to them, and if one complained, then another would try to top their story with a worse situation. They actually don't even want to solve the problem... but I think that they like to vent, then of course they get sympathy back from their friends and they like the attention.
Please don't think me prejudiced, but in the work that I do, there are a lot of Jewish people present and there are just a lot of them in the Northeast. I have many good Jewish friends and I love them dearly. However I am a people watcher and I tend to notice behavioral patterns.
52FM - About the trust issue. Have you ever thought about renewing your marriage vows with your wife? Is there something or someplace that you really consider sacred that you could use to take renew your vows with or at?
No - renewing vows at this point woudl be near meaningless. In all honesty, I've fantasized about doing that one day when this is all resolved - but to do it prematurely would just be another in my pattern of enabling the behavior I object to.
By the way - I may be venting alot, but I'm not Jewish. Instead, I have another stereotypical trait- I'm Catholic, so I've got this guilt-martyr thing going on!
The trust issue haqs many layers; we may not explicitly ever reach all of them - but the fact is, my wife is aware of her feelings and is having trouble confronting them. That's why we get this change in attitude - where she says she's over something when she really isn't. There is no other way to deal with it than to confront it - and it will be tough. She is scared deep down of doing it - fear of my leaving her, fear of what it says about her, fear perhaps of uncovering things she'd rather leave buried. I don't want to upset her - I just want her to understand and trust ME.
If we get there - I will renew my vows with her anywhere she wants (I suspect PAris woudl be her choice.)
By the way - I may be venting alot, but I'm not Jewish. Instead, I have another stereotypical trait- I'm Catholic, so I've got this guilt-martyr thing going on!
The trust issue haqs many layers; we may not explicitly ever reach all of them - but the fact is, my wife is aware of her feelings and is having trouble confronting them. That's why we get this change in attitude - where she says she's over something when she really isn't. There is no other way to deal with it than to confront it - and it will be tough. She is scared deep down of doing it - fear of my leaving her, fear of what it says about her, fear perhaps of uncovering things she'd rather leave buried. I don't want to upset her - I just want her to understand and trust ME.
If we get there - I will renew my vows with her anywhere she wants (I suspect PAris woudl be her choice.)
If I were to exchange vows with my boyfriend, I would pick being in Japan at the Honda museum or the Suzuka racetrack, because of the special meaning those cars have for us. My boyfriend was raised a Catholic, but neither of us believe in god. A church wedding would mean something to his family, but nothing at all to us.
So that's why I was suggesting a non-traditional revow, but in a situation where you swear on something or some non-traditional place that your wife feels you hold the most sacred and special to you. I'm guessing that your first vows were at a church?
I wasn't implying that you or your wife were Jewish, but many behavioral patterns are established in our childhood. Obviously, not all Jewish people kvetch, but it's more something that those who are more traditional and surrounded by an old country community tend to do.
So that's why I was suggesting a non-traditional revow, but in a situation where you swear on something or some non-traditional place that your wife feels you hold the most sacred and special to you. I'm guessing that your first vows were at a church?
I wasn't implying that you or your wife were Jewish, but many behavioral patterns are established in our childhood. Obviously, not all Jewish people kvetch, but it's more something that those who are more traditional and surrounded by an old country community tend to do.
That statement is incorrect.52FM wrote: The fact is - no one (not even my kids) will truly understand all I went through.
For what little comfort it is, there will always be someone in California that knows all that you went through. Maybe not the intimate details of the counseling sessions themselves, but all that they represent. Trust that.
As for the opinions of others...
Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.
Steve Jobs (1955 - )
Thank you so much, Ith! I want to say so much more - but thank you will have to do for now.
OK - the problem is a catch 22; I don't like being with her right now; she resents the fact that we don't/can't spend enjoyable time together. She says she's changed so much (and she really, truly has) but the one big issue just hangs like a 1,000 pound weight over it all. I can't fake it - until we get that resolved - or we realize we can't - I don't want to spend time pretending it's not there.
No counseling this week - next week, I have to say that. She resents that right now I don't simply ask her how her day was - and it bothers her more knowing that beore counseling I spent time doing that very thing several times a week with someone else. And she resents knowing that I want to do that again - when I can't bring myself to do that with her.
Well, the fact is, and I finally mean this as much as I thought I did before - I will not do that again until we get this resolved. No timetable - but I am not going to stand for dragging this out several years jsut so the issue in effect goes away.
If she woudl let me be me - I couldn't love her more. If she wants me to be a "me" that is only HER impression oi who I want to be, or who I SHOULD want to be - it won't work.
Thanks again Ith - for the quote and your suport!
OK - the problem is a catch 22; I don't like being with her right now; she resents the fact that we don't/can't spend enjoyable time together. She says she's changed so much (and she really, truly has) but the one big issue just hangs like a 1,000 pound weight over it all. I can't fake it - until we get that resolved - or we realize we can't - I don't want to spend time pretending it's not there.
No counseling this week - next week, I have to say that. She resents that right now I don't simply ask her how her day was - and it bothers her more knowing that beore counseling I spent time doing that very thing several times a week with someone else. And she resents knowing that I want to do that again - when I can't bring myself to do that with her.
Well, the fact is, and I finally mean this as much as I thought I did before - I will not do that again until we get this resolved. No timetable - but I am not going to stand for dragging this out several years jsut so the issue in effect goes away.
If she woudl let me be me - I couldn't love her more. If she wants me to be a "me" that is only HER impression oi who I want to be, or who I SHOULD want to be - it won't work.
Thanks again Ith - for the quote and your suport!