Power of prayer vs. futility of prayer

[jm]

(deleted)

[Autumn Child]

are you considering this topic properly, or are you just setting out to rubbish peoples beliefs with no valid reason and argument?

I'm sorry if you actually feel that I have rubbished anything, but I will not respect you if you say that believing things that are not true are OK as long as they make you feel good.

but these people believe with total conviction that it is true,
and i still cant see much problem for the reasons ive already said

well i guess we'll have to agree to disagree, as the saying goes


what does anyone else think about this?

[I65]

are you considering this topic properly, or are you just setting out to rubbish peoples beliefs with no valid reason and argument?

I'm sorry if you actually feel that I have rubbished anything, but I will not respect you if you say that believing things that are not true are OK as long as they make you feel good.

but these people believe with total conviction that it is true,
and i still cant see much problem for the reasons ive already said

well i guess we'll have to agree to disagree, as the saying goes


what does anyone else think about this?

I find johnmonkey's attitude disheartening. Especially the attitude that he is the "authority" on whether or not God exists, something that I think most rational people would agree can truly not be proven, or disproven. I can only hope that he is just young, and will grow out of this stage.

[Just Like Honey...]

I think most rational people would agree can truly not be proven, or disproven

Agreed. I think I mentioned it in another one of my posts.

[jm]

"[quote:15f2d5bec6="Ithildriel65"]I find johnmonkey's attitude disheartening. Especially the attitude that he is the "authority" on whether or not God exists...I think most rational people would agree can truly not be proven, or disproven.[/quote:15f2d5bec6]Well, you shouldn't let someone on the internet thinking something that you don't think dishearten you. Of course, I reject any idea that I'm anyone else's authority for their beliefs, but I am certainly the authority over my own beliefs -- however young or old I may be.

Do you agree with this:?
[quote:15f2d5bec6="Autumn Child"]it is good that prayer and the belief in a god can help people, but i think that in no way does this prove the existence of god, just the hope that someone gets from belief.[/quote:15f2d5bec6]This is saying that believing in something is good, completely seperate from whether it's true, and that's untrue and wicked."

[I65]

I find johnmonkey's attitude disheartening. Especially the attitude that he is the "authority" on whether or not God exists...I think most rational people would agree can truly not be proven, or disproven.

Well, you shouldn't let someone on the internet thinking something that you don't think dishearten you. Of course, I reject any idea that I'm anyone else's authority for their beliefs, but I am certainly the authority over my own beliefs -- however young or old I may be.

OK, I can agree that you are the authority on your own beliefs. But you do confuse me. And a lot of things that people I do not know do or believe dishearten me. People I meet on the internet. People I read about in the news. Sorry, but I'm kind of a hippy, why can't we all get along kind of gal. I just want to know "what's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?"

Do you agree with this:?

it is good that prayer and the belief in a god can help people, but i think that in no way does this prove the existence of god, just the hope that someone gets from belief.

This is saying that believing in something is good, completely seperate from whether it's true, and that's untrue and wicked.

I just really have a hard time trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that it is wicked to believe in God and get hope from that? Or are you saying that Autumn Child is wicked for believing that it is good that people get hope from praying to God?

If someone believes in God, then God exists for them. It is their truth. It brings them hope, and hope can help people do beautiful things.

If someone does not believe in God, then God does not exist for them. It is their truth. They believe that this is their one chance to live their life, and that can help them do beautiful things.

I don't see how either one of these scenarios are evil or wicked.

There are evil people that believe in God, there are evil people that do not believe in God. There are good people that believe in God, and there are good people that don't believe in God. I don't see where it is my place (or anyone elses) to judge someone elses beliefs, someone elses truths.

[jm]

"I don't think we will be able to get each other to understand our positions.
(Which would be, I should refrain from saying, one of the reasons why peace, love, and understanding don't work...unless, of course, you believe it works, and then it does.)
"

[Autumn Child]

Do you agree with this:?

it is good that prayer and the belief in a god can help people, but i think that in no way does this prove the existence of god, just the hope that someone gets from belief.

This is saying that believing in something is good, completely seperate from whether it's true, and that's untrue and wicked.

I just really have a hard time trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that it is wicked to believe in God and get hope from that? Or are you saying that Autumn Child is wicked for believing that it is good that people get hope from praying to God?

If someone believes in God, then God exists for them. It is their truth. It brings them hope, and hope can help people do beautiful things.

If someone does not believe in God, then God does not exist for them. It is their truth. They believe that this is their one chance to live their life, and that can help them do beautiful things.

I don't see how either one of these scenarios are evil or wicked.

There are evil people that believe in God, there are evil people that do not believe in God. There are good people that believe in God, and there are good people that don't believe in God. I don't see where it is my place (or anyone elses) to judge someone elses beliefs, someone elses truths.

Very well said
I think that as long as damage is not being done to anyone (including themselves) as a result of their beliefs, then they are entirely entitled to their beliefs.

A scenario:

A family in africa is starving, the children need to work to help support the family, but their parents are dying of AIDS so they also have to stay to look after them.

johnmonkey, would you say it is a bad thing if they believe in a god (and the belief doesnt stop them persuing other avenues such as medication etc.), and this belief gives them hope and strength to carry on in an unimaginably difficult situation, where giving up would lead to even worse consequences for the entire family?

[jm]

(deleted)

[Autumn Child]

johnmonkey, would you say it is a bad thing if they believe in a god (and the belief doesnt stop them persuing other avenues such as medication etc.), and this belief gives them hope and strength to carry on in an unimaginably difficult situation, where giving up would lead to even worse consequences for the entire family?

Yes, I would say that.

[I65]

I know this is off topic, but I need to post. I don't want to be a lounge singer...

[Autumn Child]

I know this is off topic, but I need to post. I don't want to be a lounge singer...

hang around the lounge and wait for youre big break

(post lots! )

[52FM]

And now I'm a Japanese surfer? I'm the most un-surfer like person in the world (though I do have blond hair that is staying mostly blond despite my age.)

OK - somehat on-topic but light:

What does a dyslexic agnostic insomniac do?

Lies awake all night wondering if there is a dog!

[Autumn Child]

What does a dyslexic agnostic insomniac do?

Lies awake all night wondering if there is a dog!

heh heh heh

thats good


i heard a good joke, but i wont tell it cos knowone will like it lol

[jm]

"A scenario:

Mr. A takes a ship to Africa, and steals a native family and puts them in his ship. He takes them to America and sells the mother to Mr. B, the father to Mr. C, and the kids to Mr. Q. Messers B, C, and Q give the gift of religion to their property, teaching them that present sufferings are rewarded in the eternal afterlife. The family, instead of rebelling, live their lives in contentment.

Autumn Child, would you say it is a bad thing if they believe in a god, and this belief gives them hope and strength to carry on in an unimaginably difficult situation, where giving up would lead to even worse consequences for the entire family?

(replying to this)

Your scenario:

(A) Do you propose a god which has the power to cure the parents of AIDS? If so, either (1) their god is a nasty bastard, (2) the parents deserve it, or (3) some hocus-pocus free will argument lets you have a loving god and undeserved death and torture.

(B) How does the belief in "a god" help this family in Africa, anyway?"

[Autumn Child]

A scenario:

Mr. A takes a ship to Africa, and steals a native family and puts them in his ship. He takes them to America and sells the mother to Mr. B, the father to Mr. C, and the kids to Mr. Q. Messers B, C, and Q give the gift of religion to their property, teaching them that present sufferings are rewarded in the eternal afterlife. The family, instead of rebelling, live their lives in contentment.

Autumn Child, would you say it is a bad thing if they believe in a god, and this belief gives them hope and strength to carry on in an unimaginably difficult situation, where giving up would lead to even worse consequences for the entire family?

in this scenario, the belief isnt giving them courage that spurs them on to positive action - so no, i wouldnt say that it is a good thing. They are being mislead into being resigned to their situation and exploitation.

i dont think you can say that all belief is a good thing, but that doesnt mean that all belief is 'wicked' either.

(A) Do you propose a god which has the power to cure the parents of AIDS? If so, either (1) their god is a nasty bastard, (2) the parents deserve it, or (3) some hocus-pocus free will argument lets you have a loving god and undeserved death and torture.

(B) How does the belief in "a god" help this family in Africa, anyway?

A) no, i do not believe in any sort of god, particularly one which is all-good, all-seeing and all-doing. But in the situation i described, i think that the belief, whether it be false or not, would give them the strength to carry on - if they didnt have that hope and strength then they may give up and the situation could get worse for everyone. If it makes them feel better and enables them to pull through hard times without having a negative impact, i dont have a problem with it.

B) as above


I do have quite a big problem with the Roman Catholic Church though - particulary their policy of activly promoting in the third world the lies that condoms spread HIV just to gain ground on their 'conrtaception is wrong' line.

[jm]

"Well, that just leaves you saying that a lie is a good thing to believe, if it gives HIVvy Africans courage (though you haven't explained quite how it does that for them), even though the lie often makes wickedness.

I'm glad [u:268ba22571]you[/u:268ba22571] said that and not me! "

[Just Like Honey...]

Well, that just leaves you saying that a lie is a good thing to believe, if it gives HIVvy Africans courage, even though the lie often makes wickedness.

Well, I'm in agreement that yes, it is a good thing if it gives them courage. I just don't know where you got the wickedness part...

[Autumn Child]

Well, that just leaves you saying that a lie is a good thing to believe, if it gives HIVvy Africans courage (though you haven't explained quite how it does that for them), even though the lie often makes wickedness.

I'm glad you said that and not me!

why is it necessarily a lie? someone can believe in a higher being without having been told by someone/an organisation

i agree with Just Like Honey, i dont know where this wickedness thing is coming from...

[jm]

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