I’ve posted from time to time about my “Charlotte” incident and attempts at rectifying shortcomings in my marriage. For anyone who might wonder how this is going (since it started well over a year ago), here is an update.
Counseling is a very slow process – and yet that shouldn’t be surprising, since we’re uncovering and trying to change behaviors that we may have not even be aware of; and deal with the surprise (and shock) in learning how the other person really feels and why they act the way they do.
We reached a milestone of sorts in that regard this week. Realizations, admissions, regrets, sorrow on both our parts. Obvious cause for optimism, one would say.
But within hours away from the atmosphere of counseling, it began to unravel. Denial, statements contradicting what was said just an hour or so before, a slightly different spin on things – all this I suspect just to save face after being emotionally exposed.
But it’s too late to turn back on some very important issues. They have been brought out and – for the first time – the counselor stepped in to assure that my wife really understood the point I was making, that it was valid, that her very recent actions underscored what I’ve been trying to say; that despite her denials and even perhaps her intent – her actions have (and had for many years) a strong negative impact on me and therefore our relationship.
Sadly – but not surprisingly – after the session my wife chose to revisit two areas we agreed to put off until much later in counseling. Namely, internet socializing in general and internet friends specifically. We’re not ready to talk through that yet, since we disagree so strongly. But I think she felt the need to regain some leverage. Still, when I offered that we begin those discussions next in counseling, she said no – we’re not ready. To be honest, I think she is thinking/hoping the issues will simply go away – that eventually I won’t care. She gets that impression from the fact that I never mention it – but when she does, I restate my views and we end up arguing.
Her viewpoint is very extreme, very condescending, very insulting, very hurtful. We need to discover where that comes from. But like I said – small steps. We found out where some of her other attitudes came from – and it was very complex but tied in directly with my “Charlotte” incident from nearly 18 years ago. This I suspect is related as well – fear that I am excluding her from my life.
SOMEDAY – we will get to the bottom line. If she is so worried of being excluded that she tries to force certain behaviors – she will lose me anyway. An outsider can see it easily; but it's difficult for a fiercely proud woman like her to admit that she ultimately is not really in control.
I’m anxious for this to end – but I can see we have many months to go.
Small Steps
Moderator: Bob
Small Steps
Last edited by 52FM on Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Willoughby. Next stop is Willoughby."
I didn't see this until today.
I don't need to tell you that you are doing the right thing, you know that you are.
She can't be vulnerable. She can't allow herself to be hurt. Everytime you and the counselor tear down a wall she has built up to protect herself, she is going to try and build it back up. Hopefully each time she builds it a little lower, until eventually she realizes that she doesn't need to protect herself from you, that you aren't going to hurt her.
Whatever happens with this in the end, you know that you are a wonderful, giving person, and that you did the best you could for her, for your children, and for yourself.
I wish for you both, to grab the brass ring.
Hugs,
Ith
I don't need to tell you that you are doing the right thing, you know that you are.
She can't be vulnerable. She can't allow herself to be hurt. Everytime you and the counselor tear down a wall she has built up to protect herself, she is going to try and build it back up. Hopefully each time she builds it a little lower, until eventually she realizes that she doesn't need to protect herself from you, that you aren't going to hurt her.
Whatever happens with this in the end, you know that you are a wonderful, giving person, and that you did the best you could for her, for your children, and for yourself.
I wish for you both, to grab the brass ring.
Hugs,
Ith
“Reaching for the brass ring” is a great analogy. Sometimes you just can’t quite get it. It’s there, but just out of reach. And then you realize that the ride is coming to an end and it’s too late. Of course, you can always take another ride and try again. But maybe the last ride made you too dizzy – and you have to take a break and try again another time.
Or maybe it’s simply time to get off the carousel. Time to quit going around and around in circles – seemingly making progress, only to end up right back where I started from.
I essentially gave up tonight after counseling. We’re scheduled for another session in two weeks and I intend to go, but in my mind I know it’s not going any further.
I thought we reached a milestone last week – when my wife finally, for the first and only time, admitted she had been controlling me (and my daughter) in a certain recent incident. But now it’s unraveling. My wife does still admit to being wrong – but criticized me for my reactions at the time. It’s way too long to get into, but in essence the counselor took my wife’s side. Her admitting fault was well noted, but he felt her point was equally valid, and suggested that the issue was my inability to stand up for myself appropriately in a conflict or “clash” as my wife called it. I explained that I’m trying and learning – and since I’ve been passive so long, it’s probably coming out too strong. But I felt that was better than giving in. Paradoxically, he agreed with me as well. So it’s understandable to be too strong as I try to find my voice – but it’s definitely wrong. I said given my nature of wanting to please people, I’d be more inclined to give in rather that do something wrong. And I said to him “you know, it took everything I had to not give in under this situation – which she ultimately admitted fault. It would take less than two weeks of things like that to get me back to my “giving in” nature. (Not coincidently, we meet every two weeks. I was making a point that got lost.)
So I left with the idea that I need to learn how to “clash” with my wife; that the way I’m doing it now is absolutely wrong; as I learn, I’m subject to justifiable criticism; it’s well understood that my general nature is to avoid criticism and therefore I’m likely to avoid clashes; none of that is my wife’s responsibility at all; so in order to develop I have to subject myself to justifiable criticism, which will have the effect of deterring me from standing up for myself.
As in the movie WarGames – the only winning move is not to play.
On the way home I felt a certain smugness from my wife. In the session tonight she justified most of her controlling actions as having good intent – trying to help or protect someone from things she knew to be bad (like me using discussion boards). I said we needed to talk about that more in the next session, because to me the intent is immaterial – it’s the effect that has the negative impact. She disagreed – and we both disagreed on how the counselor saw it. It was good enough for her when he declared “I know it’s not your intent to control people.” (Actually I disagree – I think very often it is.) At the least I know it’s her intent to control a situation to her preference, but it’s impossible to prove that. As it is, he agrees with me that the effect is important – but my wife didn’t catch that at all. As long as her intent is pure, in her mind the effect is of little concern. I guess it's a way of saying "the end justifies the means." I sensed she felt empowered after this session, and I feel defenseless.
I said that should be the next discussion, but now, as I’m up late doing work for my new job, I realize I’m just too tired of it all. I’ve been thinking about all this since April of 2005; talking to her about it since May or June of 2005; spent over six months trying to convince her to go to counseling; spent the few more months before we could get started in fear she would back out; and now we’ve spent three months of “getting nowhere” – according to her. (I guess until tonight, when she perceived vindication for many of the things I’ve been objecting to.)
She’s very strong and though I’m stronger than ever, she is wearing me down. But I tried my best. And I appreciate those on this site who realize just how much I have tried. Your support meant the world to me – and I honestly feel a certain sense of self pride in knowing that my efforts were noticed and admired.
I’m not really sure what will happen next. We had agreed a while ago that we would not consider divorce until our youngest is out of college. She just started her second year. So I do have time to try this again at some point – if I have the stomach for it. And if I don’t give in to my wife's suggestion that I simply relieve my anxiety over all this through medication.
There are people on this site that have shown a very touching amount of concern for me and this situation. I suspect this will come across as a rather sad result for me – given all that’s happened over all this time. Don’t feel sad for me – I have a sense of self that I would never have obtained without this experience. And who is to say where this will all end up? Maybe I’ll try again – maybe I’ll get a divorce – or maybe I’ll eventually make myself stop caring so much. Whatever – I know I tried my best this time around. I really did. But I have two jobs including a new one that I enjoy much more than my old one – I can’t let that suffer by continuing to hit my head against a brick wall.
I made two concessions to her – one of which I’m breaking as I type this. But I feel the need to let the people that helped me know where this stopped. I think I can allow myself this small indiscretion. I do want to end by saying I greatly appreciate all the support I received, from many people - but in particular from Congruous and Ith.
The other concession simply can’t be broke without major repercussions that may mean divorce – because it would be very wrong of me to go back on my word to my wife. I took a risk in making that concession and though I regret that now, I know it was necessary in order to say I gave it my best shot. Still, I can’t end without saying that I will forever remember and cherish the wonderful friendship that I developed with Ith. I apologize for writing this “publicly”, but I know you understand why. Hugs, always.
And hugs also to everyone on this wonderful forum that changed my life so positively.
Or maybe it’s simply time to get off the carousel. Time to quit going around and around in circles – seemingly making progress, only to end up right back where I started from.
I essentially gave up tonight after counseling. We’re scheduled for another session in two weeks and I intend to go, but in my mind I know it’s not going any further.
I thought we reached a milestone last week – when my wife finally, for the first and only time, admitted she had been controlling me (and my daughter) in a certain recent incident. But now it’s unraveling. My wife does still admit to being wrong – but criticized me for my reactions at the time. It’s way too long to get into, but in essence the counselor took my wife’s side. Her admitting fault was well noted, but he felt her point was equally valid, and suggested that the issue was my inability to stand up for myself appropriately in a conflict or “clash” as my wife called it. I explained that I’m trying and learning – and since I’ve been passive so long, it’s probably coming out too strong. But I felt that was better than giving in. Paradoxically, he agreed with me as well. So it’s understandable to be too strong as I try to find my voice – but it’s definitely wrong. I said given my nature of wanting to please people, I’d be more inclined to give in rather that do something wrong. And I said to him “you know, it took everything I had to not give in under this situation – which she ultimately admitted fault. It would take less than two weeks of things like that to get me back to my “giving in” nature. (Not coincidently, we meet every two weeks. I was making a point that got lost.)
So I left with the idea that I need to learn how to “clash” with my wife; that the way I’m doing it now is absolutely wrong; as I learn, I’m subject to justifiable criticism; it’s well understood that my general nature is to avoid criticism and therefore I’m likely to avoid clashes; none of that is my wife’s responsibility at all; so in order to develop I have to subject myself to justifiable criticism, which will have the effect of deterring me from standing up for myself.
As in the movie WarGames – the only winning move is not to play.
On the way home I felt a certain smugness from my wife. In the session tonight she justified most of her controlling actions as having good intent – trying to help or protect someone from things she knew to be bad (like me using discussion boards). I said we needed to talk about that more in the next session, because to me the intent is immaterial – it’s the effect that has the negative impact. She disagreed – and we both disagreed on how the counselor saw it. It was good enough for her when he declared “I know it’s not your intent to control people.” (Actually I disagree – I think very often it is.) At the least I know it’s her intent to control a situation to her preference, but it’s impossible to prove that. As it is, he agrees with me that the effect is important – but my wife didn’t catch that at all. As long as her intent is pure, in her mind the effect is of little concern. I guess it's a way of saying "the end justifies the means." I sensed she felt empowered after this session, and I feel defenseless.
I said that should be the next discussion, but now, as I’m up late doing work for my new job, I realize I’m just too tired of it all. I’ve been thinking about all this since April of 2005; talking to her about it since May or June of 2005; spent over six months trying to convince her to go to counseling; spent the few more months before we could get started in fear she would back out; and now we’ve spent three months of “getting nowhere” – according to her. (I guess until tonight, when she perceived vindication for many of the things I’ve been objecting to.)
She’s very strong and though I’m stronger than ever, she is wearing me down. But I tried my best. And I appreciate those on this site who realize just how much I have tried. Your support meant the world to me – and I honestly feel a certain sense of self pride in knowing that my efforts were noticed and admired.
I’m not really sure what will happen next. We had agreed a while ago that we would not consider divorce until our youngest is out of college. She just started her second year. So I do have time to try this again at some point – if I have the stomach for it. And if I don’t give in to my wife's suggestion that I simply relieve my anxiety over all this through medication.
There are people on this site that have shown a very touching amount of concern for me and this situation. I suspect this will come across as a rather sad result for me – given all that’s happened over all this time. Don’t feel sad for me – I have a sense of self that I would never have obtained without this experience. And who is to say where this will all end up? Maybe I’ll try again – maybe I’ll get a divorce – or maybe I’ll eventually make myself stop caring so much. Whatever – I know I tried my best this time around. I really did. But I have two jobs including a new one that I enjoy much more than my old one – I can’t let that suffer by continuing to hit my head against a brick wall.
I made two concessions to her – one of which I’m breaking as I type this. But I feel the need to let the people that helped me know where this stopped. I think I can allow myself this small indiscretion. I do want to end by saying I greatly appreciate all the support I received, from many people - but in particular from Congruous and Ith.
The other concession simply can’t be broke without major repercussions that may mean divorce – because it would be very wrong of me to go back on my word to my wife. I took a risk in making that concession and though I regret that now, I know it was necessary in order to say I gave it my best shot. Still, I can’t end without saying that I will forever remember and cherish the wonderful friendship that I developed with Ith. I apologize for writing this “publicly”, but I know you understand why. Hugs, always.
And hugs also to everyone on this wonderful forum that changed my life so positively.
"Willoughby. Next stop is Willoughby."
I don't know if you will come back here, but in the spirit of your concession, I will also say publicly what would have been private.
You and I will always carry a piece of each other with us.
When you feel yourself getting weak, you can talk to me, and I will answer. I am with you, and you already know what I am going to say.
When you feel yourself getting down, give yourself a hug for me.
When you feel yourself giving in, remember that you are a beautiful person, and your children, and your future grandchildren deserve to know YOU, the real you, not the you that other people want you to be.
You will always be part of who I am, and I you.
Hugs,
Ithy
You and I will always carry a piece of each other with us.
When you feel yourself getting weak, you can talk to me, and I will answer. I am with you, and you already know what I am going to say.
When you feel yourself getting down, give yourself a hug for me.
When you feel yourself giving in, remember that you are a beautiful person, and your children, and your future grandchildren deserve to know YOU, the real you, not the you that other people want you to be.
You will always be part of who I am, and I you.
Hugs,
Ithy
Oh my gosh.
I'm just about speechless.
Never in my life did I think the creation of a fan film forum would prove to be such a wonderful way for people to connect and share
things and life on many different levels. But also in a healthy way as opposed to all the unhealthy crap that goes
on in places like myspace etc. And I also don't feel that this is "my" forum because it belongs to the community of people that
belong and make it up. In that way I will say that you (52FM) have been a great
contributor to this forum and community and if you leave I will be sorry to see you go.
My take on medication is that it may help with some things and there are side effects however ultimately it will not heal that which ails the spirit.
There are other forums like dr-bob.org and depressionforums.com where people talk about medication etc. If you're going to take meds then I would hope your wife understands that you need to get all the information about what you are putting into your body because really the doctors aren't going to tell you everything, its necessary to learn about them.
My other suggestion is that you and your wife if you have not already take the MyersBriggs personality tests. I know they use them for job assessment and often it's flawed for that but from what I have seen it is actually quite good and interesting to see what type you and
your wife are or tend towards and then understand how those types relate and what
they need. It may help bring to light things in a different perspective that were more dfficult to illuminate otherwise.
Good luck, so long, and thanks for all the fish!
I'm just about speechless.
Never in my life did I think the creation of a fan film forum would prove to be such a wonderful way for people to connect and share
things and life on many different levels. But also in a healthy way as opposed to all the unhealthy crap that goes
on in places like myspace etc. And I also don't feel that this is "my" forum because it belongs to the community of people that
belong and make it up. In that way I will say that you (52FM) have been a great
contributor to this forum and community and if you leave I will be sorry to see you go.
My take on medication is that it may help with some things and there are side effects however ultimately it will not heal that which ails the spirit.
There are other forums like dr-bob.org and depressionforums.com where people talk about medication etc. If you're going to take meds then I would hope your wife understands that you need to get all the information about what you are putting into your body because really the doctors aren't going to tell you everything, its necessary to learn about them.
My other suggestion is that you and your wife if you have not already take the MyersBriggs personality tests. I know they use them for job assessment and often it's flawed for that but from what I have seen it is actually quite good and interesting to see what type you and
your wife are or tend towards and then understand how those types relate and what
they need. It may help bring to light things in a different perspective that were more dfficult to illuminate otherwise.
Good luck, so long, and thanks for all the fish!
Thank you so much Ith for the very wonderful sentiments you expressed.
Thanks Bob for your kind words as well. The concept of medication is not one I would consider lightly, nor would I do that without the appropriate research. I appreciate the words of caution.
Not sure if our counselor would consider personality tests. That triggered a memory of someone else’s experiences with those tests; I may suggest it or at least get his thoughts on it.
I wish I could say I feel more optimistic after a couple of days later, but it wouldn’t be true. However, as I look back I realize that I have in fact come a long way; my wife has come a significant distance as well and I think is still adjusting.
So maybe after several months of being on a plateau, I may have the motivation to start climbing again.
And I expect to keep checking into this site from time to time.
Thanks Bob for your kind words as well. The concept of medication is not one I would consider lightly, nor would I do that without the appropriate research. I appreciate the words of caution.
Not sure if our counselor would consider personality tests. That triggered a memory of someone else’s experiences with those tests; I may suggest it or at least get his thoughts on it.
I wish I could say I feel more optimistic after a couple of days later, but it wouldn’t be true. However, as I look back I realize that I have in fact come a long way; my wife has come a significant distance as well and I think is still adjusting.
So maybe after several months of being on a plateau, I may have the motivation to start climbing again.
And I expect to keep checking into this site from time to time.
"Willoughby. Next stop is Willoughby."
Two old college friends of mine, a couple I have known for over thirty years, are getting a divorce. The guy has refused to get into counseling. His wife is starting, alone, in a week or two. He thinks it's no big deal, but I'm afraid what's going to happen is that somewhere down the road he's going to revisit this time and wish he did it differently. Not talking can't be an option.
"Are there no more arrows left?"