Holidays Over

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52FM
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Holidays Over

#1 Post by 52FM » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:53 pm

My younger son went back to college yesterday; my daughter goes back next week. My older son went back to work today. The "glow" from all the activity and events is fading and we're getting back to routine. Overall, it was a great time.

Back to counseling this week. At the counselor's suggestion, we've begun to focus on the obsessive behavior I exhibited 18 years ago that my wife admits still is in the back of her mind.

This has resurrected strong feelings of guilt and shame in me - not from that incident but from another one (very different yet with a similar ending). My wife and our counselor know nothing about that - and it's something I simply have to keep to myself for several reasons. I may post something soon about how I feel in an attempt to release my growing feeling of inadequecy over it.

And maybe I'll just write it out and realize it's time to leave the community - as I conclude I have serious issues that may never be settled.

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#2 Post by I65 » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:50 pm

Wow, I thought I responded to this last night.

You are a huge part of this community, and if you leave here, it will suffer greatly.

You need to leave the feelings of guilt, shame and inadequacy behind you. They have no place in who you are.

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#3 Post by 52FM » Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:28 pm

Thanks Ith, but it's so difficult. I may write more after another session or two but this is headed down a dark alley.

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#4 Post by 52FM » Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:51 pm

Well, tonight's session I believe finally purged the "Charlotte" incident from my wife's mind. It was tough on me and I feel drained going through so much in front of her - I managed to keep from breaking down in tears but I was damn close at one point - I tried to almost be detached as I described my darkest feelings of insecurity over this time and how "Charlotte" fulfilled them. She had heard it all before but not in the controlled atmosphere that this was. So much sounded so sick to me - but it was necessary to prove to her and the counselor that I indeed had long ago come face to face with who I was that made it happen. As the feeling I had when it turned out Charlotte was manipulating me all along for her own benefit - and then when it was clear it no longer woudl work, she filed a sexual harrassment complaint on me - resulting in a demotion and severe cut in pay.

Our counselor complimented me for my candor and control and introsepctive thinking. He is convinced that this "adjustment disorder" that I had would never happen again. It was not an emotional affair in the true sense - it was a unique set of circumstances that came together in a "perfect storm" and weakened me.

My wife even later on understood (at some level) why LiT "kicked me in the stomach".

But can this happen agian at any level? I'm not truly happy yet - and so my wife believes it can. I have a lot of thinking to do - because at a very different level it in fact did happen again - though I can never tell that to my wife or my counselor. I was over it for a while but this made me see the parallels to my reaction to "Charlotte" abrubtly forcing an end to any private conversations we had - and my guilt and sorrow and regret and shame from pushing things to that point ia overwhelming me as I realize I was capable of doing that yet again.

Something is still wrong with me apparently. I've been drinking a little so I probably should stop here. But we discussed tonight how my "obsession" was really self-absorbtion. And it is again - to the point where I lose perpsective. I am capable of the most selfish behavior int he name of trying to find a comfort zone. "Charlotte" told my wife - with great disgust - that I expected her to be at my beck and call - and she resented that more than anything. While she was manipulative and not a real friend, I took advantage of her and pushed her well past any limit she had.

I can do that to anyone I've realized. Even the most caring and understanding persons in the world have a limit and I'm capable of finding it. It's enough to make anyone say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and simply cut off any further personal conversation abruptly - without any opportunity to talk it through.

I blurted out tonight "I don't really liek myself." I'm not sure if I mean that, but I had a specific regret for a speciific situation in mind when I said it. I am not a trustworthy person when I get so self-obsessed. I'm capable of betraying peopel's trust in an effort to get myself feeling good. Putting myself over friendship, respect, trust.

I have to stop and think.

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#5 Post by 52FM » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:19 pm

Well, posting under the influence is usually a bad idea. So I need to try and clarify what I was getting at. From the session last night, I see I had two distinct “disorders” going on. The first was the “perfect storm” aspect:
In a new job – first as a manager – where I felt uncertain
a boss who had been demoted into the position and was no help to me at all
an employee who was also unsure of herself
she complimented my style – just what I needed to hear with the insecurity I felt
I complimented her drive and desire to succeed – just what she needed

This part of things was bad enough – but that unique set of circumstances would never happen again. More important, I’m very secure in myself professionally now – especially now that I’m teaching as well.

The worst was yet to come however, in that after crossing the line and it getting too personal, she continued to feed me even though she was insincere. That set up a quandary that was impossible to deal with – without losing all the positive feelings I had gained from the experience.

The worst came when she abruptly ended communication without any opportunity for us to talk anything through. That all led to self-pity, which led me to feel unworthy of happiness and also led to subservience to my wife as a form of self-punishment.

OK – almost 18 years later I’m still not happy. And therefore – my wife worries it could happen again. The counselor clearly doesn’t believe it would. And in the same sense – I agree strongly. I have NO fear of ever becoming obsessed with someone. That NEVER happened again nor will it ever. I have NO fear of anyone changing their opinion of me 180 like Charlotte did. I’ve come far enough to recognize genuine care and respect and liking of me – versus Charlotte’s brand.

But I also know that when I get into the introspective mood, I know I am capable of pushing anyone past their tolerance point. Charlotte was manipulating me – and so her abrupt end makes sense to me even though I didn’t see it at the time. She got to the point where the negative aspects of “dealing” with me outweighed the good. And so without any discussion, she made it clear I was to never talk to her again. (Until she needed me again some time later – but that’s not important to go over again.) It bothered me for YEARS since I could not know what it was really saying – and so I could only take it as a negative to me.

Well, I see the point VERY clearly now. It’s a pattern of self-absorption and me betraying trusts (my wife’s and the friend) and taking advantage of the friend, all in the self-centered need to feel better at any cost. THAT leads to these abrupt endings and my subsequent guilt and shame. (I once naively thought I could just tell anyone I got close to of this tendency to consume their time so much and ask them to tell me before I go too far. But that was ridiculously vain of me - I’m sure I’d just make it to stop too if I had to deal with someone like me.). I’m fighting the self-pity (not well, obviously). But I can’t tell my wife (I’m afraid of it leading back to the subservient role) and I can’t talk this through with the counselor (because my wife no longer will “allow” private sessions – she gets too consumed with worry what we’re talking about which leads to insomnia that leads to physical problems.)

This board is my ONLY release right now. Even if no one reads this – it really helps.

I’m over so much – and yet see that I have another issue to confront privately. It’s part of my Myers-Briggs personality type – I can’t let things go without understanding them. And since I can’t understand myself – it’s hard to let this go. Worse, whenever I try I kick off a pattern of negative behavior that hurts people who help me, never gets talked out, and eventually leads me to self-contempt – obviously making things worse.

I just want to be myself, like myself, and have my wife like who I really am. Hard to do when I keep doing things that I regret.

This journey is so hard and there is no path, no MapQuest route laid out. I’m bound to make mistakes along the way and I will always feel regret and sorrow for them. That’s just who I am. But over time I guess I will forgive myself. I learned early on as part of this journey that forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves. Self-forgiveness is the hardest; but since I learned to do over Charlotte, I can do it again eventually.

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#6 Post by I65 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:21 pm

How does your counselor feel about her putting a stop to the separate sessions?

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#7 Post by 52FM » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:44 am

He doesn't know yet that my wife feels that way. My wife and I are "negotiating" that. I put that in quotes because I still feel her idea of compromise is me doing things her way because I love her.

I don't want to accuse her of making this difficult for me intentionally; she feels (or says she feels) very bad about not being able to sleep when she gets consumed with worry over things - even if they are irrational. And given how consumed I got during my Charlotte days, who am I to cast a stone for that?

So we agreed to talk more about why I want personal sessions and eventually talk it through with the counselor.

We also talked about how it sems liek all the issues we discuss are mine - she still wants to talk about my passive agressive nature, which I mentioned but was never discussed in detail. She is still upset that we talked about some of my anger and guilt issues without her and never completely filled her in. She wants to talk about my Myers-Briggs type versus hers. I said I am being very open and honest in admitting flaws or unusual aspects about my personality that can create conflict or difficulty in understanding me. But at the same time it seems she is too willing to put it all on me. She denies that - she says she's willing to talk about herself - but it never seems to happen. Because I volunteer my issues because I really want to understand and move on. She really doesn't want to understand herself. Anyway - she said in counseling that she agrees we need to spend time on her issues - like insecurity - and not just mine.

Ith - from the discussions we've had, you can see that these are ALL the issues I had concerns about before counsleing ever started. While it's frustrating that we don't seem to be getting them resolved - at least we're communicating and also at least the counselor sees these conflicts and their impact.

I fear though that he is in over his head.

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#8 Post by I65 » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:08 pm

I fear though that he is in over his head.
I could be wrong, Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time, but this statement makes the assumption that the counselor can fix your marriage, or you two individually.

He isn't a magician. He can't wave his wand and make things better. All he can do is guide the two of you through this.

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#9 Post by 52FM » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:40 pm

I agree. But I wish he'd start guiding. All he is doing is listening. We've both asked him where he thinks this is going - and we get vague statements (that even I don't get). The fact is we're bouncing all over the place because there are so many places to bounce to.

I THINK he wanted to talk about Charlotte to purge it from my wife's mind. He made a point of comparing it to another situation and declaring that from all the very honest and candid statements I've made - there is NO comparison whatsoever. So he is leading this (I hope) to trying to find out just what my wife is so worried about that makes her lose sleep. Is it fear - mistrust - what? When I tell him she no longer will "allow" private sessions - we just might get back into talking about her.

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#10 Post by I65 » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:13 pm

You hope he would start guiding, or leading?

Asking him where this is going, sounds like you want him leading. Of course, I'm not there, so I am basing this on only what I have read here. The two of you should be deciding where you want the counseling to go, and then he should be guiding you to getting there.

Like you said, a lot of this mirrors what we have talked about as stumbling blocks. She doesn't want to face her past, which are what cause her insecurities. If she wont do that, then no amount of guiding is going to get the two of you where you want to go.

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#11 Post by 52FM » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:36 pm

I've made it clear to our counselor where I want to go. Love, respect, dignity. Being able to be comfortable being myself. He knows the blocks I feel and he's seen first hand the problems I've referred to. Privately, he's told me that my wife still doesn't see that what she calls "caring" is in fact controlling. That whatever fears or insecurities she has are causing her to influence outcomes to avoid them. That's controlling. He sees that I can't live with that and be happy.

But instead we stripped me down and I went through over an hour of sometimes humilitating "testimony" in an effort to move us somewhere closer to where we need to go. I'm sure he felt it necessary to start removing one of the blocks I feel.

I understand that he can't be expected to lead us - that we have to set the destination. I just don't feel guidance yet - I only feel me acknowledging fault after fault that makes me reflect on other situations that raise other feelings of regret - all of which is counter-productive to moving myself forward.

And while my wife says "we can talk about my issues too" - it's maddingly difficult to get her to even acknowledge them. I'm not going to go into the detail - but in a sense I'm woirried she is starting to control the counselor also.

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#12 Post by 52FM » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:08 pm

In my opinion, her insecurities are fueld mainly from the sense that she is not the person I really want to spend time with. It's a viscious cycle - because right now she is right, but only because her insecurites are manifested in a way that makes me dislike her. In my mind - THIS is what we should be talking about, but I can't find the courage to do it with her in the room (she gets defensive; she denies her faults; she spends time arguing with a closed mind; all of this at $120 an hour!).

But SHE can't find the courage to allow me to explore this line of thinking on my own.

And so I guess the next topic ought to be this. At least that's what I want to do. I can't see the benefit of disucssing INTP or passive agressive. Let's discuss why I am still "afraid" of her and why she is still "afraid" of me. We need to discuss why she is uncomfortable with certain things; and I need to clearly state that I'm uncomfortable with knowing that she is.


What I feel I need is the courage that comes from being at peace with who I am. The last few sessions brought up things in my mind that have broken that down. I need to find some way of getting that back without doing something that will only make it worse. I'm talking in riddles I know, but I can't quite say what I mean. If only I had a rewind button, back to sometime in August I think.

I saw a bumper sticker a while ago that fits very well:

This too shall pass. Right now would be nice.

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