and the rest of us. Probably johnmonkey too. I heard this on NPR's Talk of the Nation this afternoon and 52FM's struggles came first to my mind. And it's a reminder of how powerful words are and to be conscious of the subtle nuances in what you say, but may be unaware of.
Ask Amy: An Apology Primer
For 52FM...
Moderator: Bob
Thank you Pockets.
"Karma" or whatever it is has some basis. Actually, it's the fact that our minds can process much more than we are aware - and sometimes things "happen" that seem good fortune that really are just us being receptive to things that are around us all the time.
What do I mean? I don't want to be specific. I will say that messages I've heard and took to heart - but then set aside - have come back up. And unexpectedly (very much so) I received a handwritten note from my wife - that was a transciption of a section of an article or book that spoke to her. A lesson she feels she needs to learn and that I need to learn also. A lesson or example I heard many months ago and applied to myself, and now I realize it's time for me to apply this regarding how I feel about my wife.
In part, her transciption included the line "foregiveness is a gift we give to ourselves." Unfortunately, I cannot detail the energy I felt in reading that line in my wife's handwriting. I cannot detail the reason why I felt that. No one - except one person - would understand and it woudl take way too long to try to explain.
I don't beleive in "channeling". (At least I keep trying to tell myself that.) But it just felt so very strange to be reading that particular line from her to me.
Cracks open - I see a sliver of light - and then they close again. I've got to wedge something in there to keep this one from closing.
Insecurity is the main isseu - my wife acknowledged today. WHY is she insecure. I cannot say more but I believe the answer is attainable.
As a human being - she needs my love and my comfort and my understanding - even in the face of the lack of trust in me she displays.
"Maybe if I felt that you really thought highly of me - that you really wanted me for myself - maybe if I didn't get the idea that you'd rather be alone or with someone else - that you'd rather exclude me from your life - maybe if I could lose the insecurity that comes from my past and also from your actions -
then I probably wouldn't mind who you talked to - on the internet or otherwise."
Will that be easy? Of course not - the fact is, she's right. It's a vicious cycle but I DON'T like being with her. But it was a real cry for help. After all - I USED to really enjoy being with her. With friends AND by ourselves. (Especially with Barry White playing in the background as we lay on the beanbag chair and drank and ....) But I digress.
Will she even remember she said it? I don't know. Does she mean it? Somehow, I think she does.
I'm taking tomorrow off. I hope this momentum that suddenly appeared is real.
"Karma" or whatever it is has some basis. Actually, it's the fact that our minds can process much more than we are aware - and sometimes things "happen" that seem good fortune that really are just us being receptive to things that are around us all the time.
What do I mean? I don't want to be specific. I will say that messages I've heard and took to heart - but then set aside - have come back up. And unexpectedly (very much so) I received a handwritten note from my wife - that was a transciption of a section of an article or book that spoke to her. A lesson she feels she needs to learn and that I need to learn also. A lesson or example I heard many months ago and applied to myself, and now I realize it's time for me to apply this regarding how I feel about my wife.
In part, her transciption included the line "foregiveness is a gift we give to ourselves." Unfortunately, I cannot detail the energy I felt in reading that line in my wife's handwriting. I cannot detail the reason why I felt that. No one - except one person - would understand and it woudl take way too long to try to explain.
I don't beleive in "channeling". (At least I keep trying to tell myself that.) But it just felt so very strange to be reading that particular line from her to me.
Cracks open - I see a sliver of light - and then they close again. I've got to wedge something in there to keep this one from closing.
Insecurity is the main isseu - my wife acknowledged today. WHY is she insecure. I cannot say more but I believe the answer is attainable.
As a human being - she needs my love and my comfort and my understanding - even in the face of the lack of trust in me she displays.
"Maybe if I felt that you really thought highly of me - that you really wanted me for myself - maybe if I didn't get the idea that you'd rather be alone or with someone else - that you'd rather exclude me from your life - maybe if I could lose the insecurity that comes from my past and also from your actions -
then I probably wouldn't mind who you talked to - on the internet or otherwise."
Will that be easy? Of course not - the fact is, she's right. It's a vicious cycle but I DON'T like being with her. But it was a real cry for help. After all - I USED to really enjoy being with her. With friends AND by ourselves. (Especially with Barry White playing in the background as we lay on the beanbag chair and drank and ....) But I digress.
Will she even remember she said it? I don't know. Does she mean it? Somehow, I think she does.
I'm taking tomorrow off. I hope this momentum that suddenly appeared is real.
Well - it's a process; or a 'back & forth'; or an evolution; or something that explains how things are said when we're in one mood, and taken back at another time.
She clarifiied her statements to say that if all this time she felt the respect from me that she felt was missing, then she may not have minded the internet conversations. But given that she felt the way she did, she cannot possibly envision a time when it would be OK with her. She felt very strongly that this woudl be the one thing she could not accept. Ever.
But oddly I'm not as upset about that; I see movement; progress; a willlingness to accept that she has issues; and I can't expect her to move on what (in her mind) is beyond her limit. At least now. We have a long way to go yet. I eee how this can play out - and there are too many other issues that are more important right now.
The biggest issue is this - is she (and was she ever) the woman I really wanted to be with? She expects the answer is no; that feeling is not without basis; it has to do with the whole Myers-Briggs thing in my mind; opposites attract but opposites can't always sustain a close relationship. Can she ever lose her insecurity enough to not feel threatened by my fulfilling certain mental and even to some extent emotional needs and desires with other people - some of whom happen to be women? And not in theory - but in the reality that already exists?
Well - I am going to at the least assure that I lose the resentment that I have; truly forgive her for the treatment for so many years; give her the respect she deserves and has earned as my wife, our children's mother, and my friend through good and bad times. And see if with that, she can give up the implicit control she feels she needs to exert for her own security.
She clarifiied her statements to say that if all this time she felt the respect from me that she felt was missing, then she may not have minded the internet conversations. But given that she felt the way she did, she cannot possibly envision a time when it would be OK with her. She felt very strongly that this woudl be the one thing she could not accept. Ever.
But oddly I'm not as upset about that; I see movement; progress; a willlingness to accept that she has issues; and I can't expect her to move on what (in her mind) is beyond her limit. At least now. We have a long way to go yet. I eee how this can play out - and there are too many other issues that are more important right now.
The biggest issue is this - is she (and was she ever) the woman I really wanted to be with? She expects the answer is no; that feeling is not without basis; it has to do with the whole Myers-Briggs thing in my mind; opposites attract but opposites can't always sustain a close relationship. Can she ever lose her insecurity enough to not feel threatened by my fulfilling certain mental and even to some extent emotional needs and desires with other people - some of whom happen to be women? And not in theory - but in the reality that already exists?
Well - I am going to at the least assure that I lose the resentment that I have; truly forgive her for the treatment for so many years; give her the respect she deserves and has earned as my wife, our children's mother, and my friend through good and bad times. And see if with that, she can give up the implicit control she feels she needs to exert for her own security.
Sometimes, my boyfriend isn't too thrilled about my time spent on the message boards. I consider it break time as most of my business is internet based. In addition, as I work from home, I get to spend a lot of quality time with my 3 dogs. And with gas prices so high, I don't want to just hop in the car to do random things. So for me, the internet costs nothing and is a good resource for information, entertainment and keeping in touch with real friends and interacting with anonymous people that I have a steady interaction with. Internet friends are a great to bounce ideas off of, and also to talk about subjects that perhaps my real life friends don't want to talk about, or just not around at the moment I feel like conversing about it. I know that my boyfriend needn't feel threatened about some internet friend stealing my affections or loyalty from him. I feel that I am old and wise enough not to get all silly about internet friendships like some teenager.
So 52FM, make it very clear that there are many different attitudes towards the internet and she shouldn't lump your interaction on this message board or any of your internet activities with someone she knows flirting on Myspace, eHarmony or match.com. It could be that some of her discomfort is due to girltalk from her friends as to what they do on the internet... or from watching tv commercials about those online dating services. Plus the internet is still under ten years old, so it's still an alien place to many people.
I'd like to give your wife a gentle shake and to tell her that it's obvious to me and a whole lot of other people that her husband is fighting hard to save his marriage. And if you're the man she wants to grow old with, stopped dilly-dallying and start enjoying each day and night with you... and without any reservations about it.
So 52FM, make it very clear that there are many different attitudes towards the internet and she shouldn't lump your interaction on this message board or any of your internet activities with someone she knows flirting on Myspace, eHarmony or match.com. It could be that some of her discomfort is due to girltalk from her friends as to what they do on the internet... or from watching tv commercials about those online dating services. Plus the internet is still under ten years old, so it's still an alien place to many people.
I'd like to give your wife a gentle shake and to tell her that it's obvious to me and a whole lot of other people that her husband is fighting hard to save his marriage. And if you're the man she wants to grow old with, stopped dilly-dallying and start enjoying each day and night with you... and without any reservations about it.
52FM - I wonder if it would help your wife's confidence if you told her that you want to stay with her because you love her and she's your best friend, that's it's not because she's the mother of your children? Throw familial duty out of the equation and just tell her that you'd be with her even if there weren't your kids involved. Emphasize that at this point in life, the kids are basically all grown up and that in America, divorce is so common, that they wouldn't be emotionally traumatized if the two of you split up. On the other hand, what would be much better for your children, is to see their parents happy together. If anything, unhappy marriages are what scare single people from wanting to get married themselves.
The problem, that I've been dancing around, is that I don't consider her a "best friend". Now the fact is, we know each other better than anyone else does - so by default she IS my best friend. But she is not someone I would without hesitation choose to spend time with. At times I avoid being with her. At times I wish she weren't around so I could enjoy my time alone - or at times ideally with other people (at the moment that would be online, but it could be in "real" friendships as well.)
But do I want to divorce her? Well, that's a tough one to answer - so I guess that means it's likely that I don't. At times I envision a life of freedom to be myself without her - and see that as a real happiness. I also possibly see a life of emptiness without her. I feel at times selfish for wanting my own happiness at the expense of her sadness (and divorce would cause her GREAT sadness) - and I simply cannot do that. Because I DO love her. And I DO believe in the committment marriage represents. There are limits of course - but I'm not there yet.
ESPCIALLY since hse has moved so far in such a short time - and continues to show she is willing to keep moving. Just not all the way yet.
She knows I am fighting hard to save our marriage - that I'm doing all this for US and not for me; to assure I find REAL contentment and happiness, so that I don't grow into a miserable old man. My methods or ideas or needs are very foreign to her (our Myers-Briggs differences) but she is learning.
I can't settle for less than 100%; I can't settle for conditions that imply somehow that I need to have some type of control enforced on me; or that I have to allow her this one exception - because there is no reason to think that one exception could turn into just one more - and then another - and then I grow old and miserable anyway, depite all these efforts.
But we are on a good path. Without a doubt. A wise woman told me many times that it's a process, and all part of the journey. She warned me the journey would be much longer and difficult than I thought at the time - but I hear her advice and support each step, and it truly helps me keep optimistic.
But do I want to divorce her? Well, that's a tough one to answer - so I guess that means it's likely that I don't. At times I envision a life of freedom to be myself without her - and see that as a real happiness. I also possibly see a life of emptiness without her. I feel at times selfish for wanting my own happiness at the expense of her sadness (and divorce would cause her GREAT sadness) - and I simply cannot do that. Because I DO love her. And I DO believe in the committment marriage represents. There are limits of course - but I'm not there yet.
ESPCIALLY since hse has moved so far in such a short time - and continues to show she is willing to keep moving. Just not all the way yet.
She knows I am fighting hard to save our marriage - that I'm doing all this for US and not for me; to assure I find REAL contentment and happiness, so that I don't grow into a miserable old man. My methods or ideas or needs are very foreign to her (our Myers-Briggs differences) but she is learning.
I can't settle for less than 100%; I can't settle for conditions that imply somehow that I need to have some type of control enforced on me; or that I have to allow her this one exception - because there is no reason to think that one exception could turn into just one more - and then another - and then I grow old and miserable anyway, depite all these efforts.
But we are on a good path. Without a doubt. A wise woman told me many times that it's a process, and all part of the journey. She warned me the journey would be much longer and difficult than I thought at the time - but I hear her advice and support each step, and it truly helps me keep optimistic.