An explanation

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52FM
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An explanation

#1 Post by 52FM » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:15 pm

All the back and forth going on in Pitman/Pockets thread has understandably left me somewhat self-conscious. I feel a need to put some things in context.

Rather than get into the feelings and issues that underscore all of this – let me just state the facts. LiT triggered a very complex set of realizations that I naively thought I’d get worked out ultimately with my wife within a few months of seeing it. When she essentially resisted, I was stunned and found myself conveying that online. The fact is, my personality was such that it was easier (and ultimately damaging) to just acquiesce to my wife and essentially ignore this. Deep down I knew this may be my last chance in life to break out of that – but it was damn difficult. Congruous and Ith both helped me tremendously.

I knew we needed counseling and my wife resisted with almost everything she had. If anything – I sort of “used” Ith in that for whatever reason, she would essentially not let me give up. Through that I feel I made a real friend, even though she was “just an Internet friend”. The downside was the fact that my wife knew nothing about it. Given my previous “Charlotte” incident, I knew she would freak out if she knew and we’d never get to counseling.

The nature of internet conversations is that time seems to go by fast. It’s hard to believe that I’ve been at this almost two years. I think it was hard for Ith to realize how many months we had gone on talking, and she knew the issue it would become with my wife once she knew. This was the most pivotal point in my life – and though it ultimately may have cost me a friend it was necessary. My take was simply this – Ith had a tough choice to make. If she continued to talk to me, she in effect was perpetuating a betrayal of trust or a “lie by omission”. But if she stopped before counseling started (that my wife continued trying to postpone) I might give up.

Ith made the right choice. She kept giving me the support I needed.

Once counseling started, and I told my wife about Ith, her first reactions were very intense. As difficult as those days and weeks (or was it months?) were, it only showed me I was right in waiting to tell her – we NEVER would have made it to counseling. We would have divorced, I believe.

We may anyway – but I HAD to give it my best shot. My VERY best shot.

I quickly realized that I had to make a concession to my wife – that I would never talk to Ith again. I don’t know if Ith ever really understood why I did this – but it was necessary.

Since that time I hadn’t always played fair. I contacted Ith on occasion – and ultimately Ith had to force me to stop that for my own good. I kind of took advantage of a “loophole” in my agreement with my wife by continuing to post here. The fact is, I needed to – I can’t explain just how hard this is – how even with the progress we’ve made how I want to just give up sometimes. How posting here keeps me honest with myself – far greater than any diary could do. And I’m not ashamed to say – reading a post from Ith every now and then has helped me keep going. Call me weak, pathetic, whatever. I’ve called myself all that and worse. Still, I keep trying for what Ith refers to as the “brass ring”.

But now somehow giving advice and how to give advice and all that have become issues in themselves. And while it’s no ones fault – and certainly contrary to any intention anyone had – it has completed the circuit. Time to close the loophole.

What is ironic is that this has played out better than my wife could have ever planned. But it’s MY weakness – a better person would just say “F-You” to all this and keep posting. But that’s irony also – because if I was that better person, I wouldn’t need to post at all.

I’m not going away – I’m just done talking about my marriage.

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#2 Post by 52FM » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:07 pm

In case it wasn't clear - I posted this in order to show that comparisons of my situation and that of Pitman are irrelevant. I'd say they are very different, but that would imply there were some similarities.

If I revealed too much, I apologize to Ith. I only wanted to point out that all Ith ever did was give me the support I needed to do what I knew was right for me. She never told me what to do or how to do it - she merely encouraged me to not give up on the quest I set out for myself. Once it was clear that it had begun to take root, she gently but directly helped me end my "dependence" on her and her support. Not that she no longer wanted to talk to me - just that at this point I was making it an obstacle rather than a conduit. I shouldn't speak for her and it's wrong to presume - and I may sound kind of full of myself in saying this - but I suspect that was not an easy thing for her to do. We came to enjoy our communication and banter and shooting the breeze unrelated to my marriage.

So our cyber-friendship was more than advice - it had a depth to it grown over many months. That it's over in some sense has left me a bit melancholy but it was inevitible.

If I do ever grab the brass ring, we will be back in touch as "real" friends.

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#3 Post by I65 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:08 pm

I am sorry that you ended up getting dragged into that 'conversation', and for any part of mine in causing you discomfort.

It is not being full of yourself, or an assumption that it was difficult for me to enforce an end to our pm communications based on the concessions to your wife. I enjoy your wit and you were also supportive of me during a difficult time in my life, which got glossed over a bit in your post. Our support was reciprocal, and beneficial to us both.

While your communications on the board in regards to your current journey have been few and far between, I will say that it does bother me a bit that you wont post here at all about it. I worry that you wont have a place to vent when you need to. You know what is best for you, so do what you need to, and I will keep sending you my best thoughts and wishes. When you are feeling down, just give yourself a hug from me, and know that 'this too shall pass'.

All my best for you and yours, is all I ever hoped for, and all I ever will.

Hugs,
Ith.

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#4 Post by 52FM » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:00 am

:cry:

I feel bad for all that has happened. But I can't post here anymore about my marriage - I'm sure Ith you know me well enough to know I'd react that way. Congruous often said it took a lot of guts to do this on a board and risk the ridicule of people who might jump on my vulnerability (that was over on IMDb). This was a very safe haven - but nothing lasts forever. With all due respect also for our moderator - I think he's in a situation he simply never anticipated. First JM and now this. His solution quite frankly is short sighted and/or a bit naive. Given his opinions on how to handle this - I feel less inclined to post about such personal things. In fact, I feel a strange sense of exposure suddenly - as though this was all wrong ultimately. Of course, that's my wife voice I hear: "I told you all this internet stuff was crap. Why do you waste your time and expose yourself like this."

Yes - I will need to vent. Hell, I need to vent right now. But how the hell can I post what's happened lately in light of all this? I can't and won't.

The board has evolved - and frankly also I saw Pockets as a very vibrant addition to the board. Different in her approaches than many of us - but then again different is never bad in my eyes.

I wish this didn't turn out this way. I wish I had more time to type this out, but I have a meeting to go to. Maybe later. I sense an ending that I simply don't want -

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#5 Post by 52FM » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:55 pm

Just one clarrification - when I said "different is never bad in my eyes" I was in NO WAY implying I think it is bad in anyone else's eyes here. Written in haste;

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#6 Post by Pitman » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:24 pm

Well, I just raise the question....if someone reacts so emotionally and so defensively to what another anonymous member has posted, what does that really say about that person? I'm not making any judgements or conclusions here, I'm just asking. I think at least there is a red flag here. Something only the individual can determine for him or herself.

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#7 Post by 52FM » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:36 pm

Pitman - what's tough about this situation is that ITh and I really got to know each other. That's probably uncommon on boards like this. I happen to know a great deal about her - she happens to know a great deal about me. So we happen to know certain personality traits and to some extent the sources of some of those traits.

And lets jsut simply be honest - simply raising the question you do and seeing a red flag from it IS making a judgement. I am fond of Mike Ditka and a famous phrase of his - namely "Who ya crappin'??" What does that really say about her? I have NO idea - you tell me. I'm not good enough to be able to tell what one incident like this - without the benefit of real discussion - tells me about anyone.

However, after getting to know her - I have a REAL good idea of who she is. I am holding back big time here. Obviously, I care for her - and she certainly doesn't need anyone ot come to her defense. It's jsut tough for me to know who she is and the caring person she CLEARLY (to me and others) is and to hear that questioned based on WHAT? A reaction (not necessarly unfounded imo) to a person setting up "tactics" (Pockets' words) and then seemingly (by her bolding certain words) strongly questioning you for not follwoing through. IT WAS AN OBSERVATION that two people made. (I stopped reading that thread long ago and only happened to read it when I saw a "last post" by Ith. But for what it's worth, I happen to agree - it was past advice and more like something else. Pockets herself said it best - these were "tactics" as though this was a "mission" (or worse, a conquest). NOT THAT POCKETS MEANT IT THAT WAY. But that is /was a reasonable impression to be taken away from it all.

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#8 Post by Pockets » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:48 am

52FM - As I posted in that thread, I bolded those words to place an emphasis on them as my posts are so long and also, because I had make those points before about not rushing to verbalize his romantic interest in her until there was more of a friendship foundation, he had agreed with me, then was thinking again about telling her right away that he wanted to date her. Maybe I should have italicized those words instead of putting them in boldface. The tone of that post was supposed to be conversational with a lighthearted exasperated bent, like I would talk to a real friend that's all wound up over some relationship issue. Haven't we tried to help someone through dating cold-feet or if they've just broken up with someone, tried to keep them on the best course possible?

I also posted there that I feel that ideally love and romance is supposed to be some spontaneously perfect thing like in the fairy tales and the movies, but in reality, the strong relationships that turn into true love are the result of couples that have more in common than just sexual attraction, and that all successful long term relationships are due to constant maintenance and grooming. Where the "tactics" come in is my trying to help Pitman build more bonding connections to this mainland Chinese born young woman. The only way that he got her phone number was because he asked her for help with learning Chinese, and then she said that she could use some help with her English. I felt (as a woman who has been at the receiving end of many pickup lines) that he was compromising his integrity if he didn't get back on track with her helping him with his Chinese. And just going by what he posted about their one date, he seemed to forget about wanting to learn Chinese, but was ready just to start dating her. And should Pitman get to the point of wanting to marry her, knowing Chinese is the only way to really be accepted by her family.

Maybe "tactics" was too strong a word to use, but on the other hand it's part of what you need to do in life if you have any special goals in mind. For instance, if you want to have rock musician friends, then be a musician yourself. For a few years, I played bass guitar in a few local bands and had a drummer boyfriend. It was a great time in my life and I felt better being a fellow musician to my boyfriend, instead than being some common trampy groupie and just working on how I dressed and looked. If I fell in love with a chef, I would want to learn how to cook. I want to experience firsthand their talents and passions and truly be their equal in the relationship.

Conversely, after much self-examination (armchair psychology for those who can't afford a professional and their problems aren't that dire), a few years ago, I analyzed why I hadn't met my Mr. Perfect yet. All of my old boyfriends were nice guys and very devoted to me, but something was lacking for me after the initial infatuation period. And that's when I realized how much I needed my lifemate to be intellectually inclined, emotionally sensitive, enjoy verbal exchange with me and I with him, to have an equally strong temperment, share my love for my type of cars and love dogs. There was more to my wish list, and I was single for a few years while looking for my soulmate... but I was determined never to break another man's heart. And the long wait was well worth the extraordinnary relationship I have with my current boyfriend. But I feel that I used a reverse strategy to figure out what sort of man I was looking for.

Starting a relationship by trying to date someone that happens to catch your eye and you develop a crush on just never worked for me. I need more substance, connections than just the kissing and cuddling. And of my prior three relationships that didn't work out, they each lasted about five years and at least the friendship part and the interesting activities (music, antiques) we did together were very satisfying to me.

I may be repeating myself, but when I told my little sister than my boyfriend loves my mind above all else and I his, she told me that what attracted her to her husband was his mind and how it worked. And we both know that my stepdad loved my mom's mind first. He was in Taiwan for a few months and saw plenty of beautiful Chinese women over there, but my mom really stood out (to him) because of how well spoken and well educated she was. In her good moments, she is charming and a wonderful conversationalist. I guess it also helped that us three girls were small, cute and very well-behaved... so he wasn't put off by her being divorced and with children. So anyway, it took me a long time to figure out what kind of soulmate I need. All I ever knew was that I didn't want the typical husband, 2.5 kids and the house with the white picket fence in the suburbs.

See... another overly long post from me.

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#9 Post by 52FM » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:47 am

OK - I have a bit better perspective of the post that created the issue. You said it was meant to be conversational - perhaps a bit of light ribbing for Pitman kind of going off course. Anyway - it was not meant to be a reprimand of sorts - as it came out to me and Congruous.

I think maybe that's as good a reason as any to carry the conversation in a private vein (like PM) rather than "public" - but that's up to you two.

I woudl just add that misunderstandings like this are inevitiable when people talk to each other publically - and so the observations made by Congruous and Ith (and later by me) should not be unexpected at times.

(By the way - for what it's worth - I can relate well to this observation about datng and relationships: I need more substance, connections than just the kissing and cuddling. The people I know that in my mind have satisfying relationships are the ones that have those connections. The couples I know that do not - and they are MANY - are either unhappy or living a life of accomodation. It is EXACTLY that type of life that I've been trying to avoid - and have questioned myself so many times over whether I "deserve" it or if I'm being selfish becasue it will hurt my wife to leave her for that reason - when overall we have a comfortable life and now several objections I've had over the past 20 years or so have been addressed succesfully.

Ith knows all the depths of the struggles I've had and still have. And she is right in saying that I've at least tried to support her in situations that she's faced. I didn't want to mention that even that vaguely out of respect for her privacy but let me say this - when a person reacts strongly to a particular comment, there is a reason behind it. If it seems like an over-reaction, it's only an over-reaction from your own perspective - and of course it's likely that your perspective is limited.

If someone gets pissed at something I say - I respect the fact that for whatever reason that I don't know and probably have no real business knowing, it meant something to them stronger than what I meant.


I loved this forum - it was an important part of my development. I know I should feel free to continue to post, but it's sort of tough now for a lot of reasons. It's nobody's "fault" - it just happened.

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#10 Post by Pitman » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:16 pm

52FM wrote:I think maybe that's as good a reason as any to carry the conversation in a private vein (like PM) rather than "public" - but that's up to you two.

I woudl just add that misunderstandings like this are inevitiable when people talk to each other publically - and so the observations made by Congruous and Ith (and later by me) should not be unexpected at times.
The reason for keeping it public is that I welcome a variety of points of view regarding my situation. I want to keep an open mind when considering my options. That Cong, and Ith jumped into the thread and attacked Pockets when it had nothing to do with them was just wrong. She was speaking to me. It really should have been their posts in that thread (which were directly aimed at Pockets, and way off the topic), that should have been sent as PM's to her. And in a manner more respectful and questioning her method of communicating. If someone wants to take up an issue with a member that isn't based on the topic of the thread, then a PM, or starting a new thread and making a quote would have been more appropriate.

I also do appreciate Cong's and Ith's opinions and suggestions regarding my situation. That's why it's a public thread. What they have to say may help me to understand my place in all of this.

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#11 Post by 52FM » Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:22 pm

OK - I understand your desire to get other opinions on the situation you were discussing - if anyone wanted to post them - and so that's why a public thread.

Congruous' reaction was to the overall tone of the situation - that's why it was posted in that particular thread, not separately. Yes, I see where a seaparate thread may have been better - but not unusual for it to have been right in the same thread.

What continued from that certainly was better suited for a separate thread once it got past a response or two -

I wish it hadn't escalated and spun almost out of control as fast as it did - but it did and it's over now.

By the way, Pitman - I really wish you well. I haven't read your posts in detail so I won't comment more than that, but I mean that very sincerely.

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#12 Post by Pitman » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:42 pm

Thanks 52FM! Dating ain't easy!

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