Bob-san, with all due respect.

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Bob-san, with all due respect.

#1 Post by I65 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:18 pm

I'm sorry to see that this topic is generating friction among the members.
When new people join invariably different personalities may conflict over the way they communicate things and we may not always know or understand where people are coming from given the written medium or may just disagree with how they communicate.

I would ask that any personal conflicts stop immediately in this topic and take it to PM if desired. When I get the chat going again you can take it to chat.

If someone disagrees with someone regarding a posting here, explain what it is you disagree with that was said specifically and suggest alternative tactics such as for example with regards to Pitman's dating techniques.

I would also say that given that the bulk of the conversation here is between Pitman and Pockets, if Pitman himself doesn't have issues with how Pockets relates to him then let's just leave it at that. Personally I have found the conversation to be very interesting.

Thanks!
I did explain what I disagreed with in regards to posts on that thread, and did my best to address the posts, and not the poster
Not to open a big can of worms, but this thread has made me uncomfortable as well. Giving advice is one thing, but the quote congruous posted was more dictatorial than advisory. Your stereotyping of women and ethnic groups on this thread also has been bothering me. I don't know much about Asian culture, so I wont address that, but your repeated insistence that all women think the same way you do has been bothering me for awhile now.
explain what it is you disagree with that was said specifically and suggest alternative tactics such as for example with regards to Pitman's dating techniques.
I did exactly that in this post.
Frankly, what you have said in this post actually makes me less comfortable with the advice that you are giving him. I don't know how much her senior he is, but basically you are giving him a play book to trick this younger woman into falling for him.

My advice to Pitman would be to not play games. If you truly want to help each other with language skills, then by all means do. I would however, let her know that you would like to see the relationship eventually develop into more than a friendship. I'm not saying to smother her with how attractive you think she is etc, but be honest about your intention. If she says she's not interested, you know where she stands, and you can both decide if you are comfortable continuing on as friends. That takes away some of your anxiety, you can be yourself, instead of trying to fit some mold to win her over. Once you release that, and are able to be your comfortable self around each other, sparks may just fly, or you may find out that your image of her was more what you wanted than her.

If she finds out down the road that you were helping her for reasons different than what you professed, you may end up without a friend as well as a 'Charlotte'.
Rather than addressing the issues of stereotyping, Pockets chose to begin stating her assumptions about me as facts, and drag another board members name into our disagreement.

The fact is, that I rarely read a complete post from Pockets. I have seen her stereotype entire groups (Jewish, men, women, and Asians off the top of my head) and am very uncomfortable when I read this type of bigotry. I have held back saying anything regarding this, up until now. I've tried to ignore the generalizations and stereotyping, but this board is a small enough community, and she is a prolific enough poster that it is difficult.
I would ask that any personal conflicts stop immediately in this topic and take it to PM if desired. When I get the chat going again you can take it to chat.
Because of issues that I have seen on other boards, where people will manipulate a personal message and post it on a general forum, I will not exchange PM's with someone that I do not trust, and I do not trust Pockets. This is your board to run as you will, and I have enjoyed my time here. However, my comfort here has been diminished by feeling that I am unable to express my distaste on the forum when I come across posts that I find are embroiled in bigotry.

If Pockets can restrain herself from posting her armchair psychiatry regarding me and discontinue her attempts to categorize me on the public forums, I will do my best to ignore her posts that I find distasteful. I will not, however, use the PM system to communicate with her. If this is an unsatisfactory solution for you, I will take my leave.

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#2 Post by Pockets » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:28 pm

You couldn't just pm Bob-san? Instead you had to make a public post to escalate essentially a non-issue. And that thread was posted in the Loveline - A/C section which I thought was there to discuss relationships.

And I don't stereotype, but I do make a lot of observations. I am an American born Chinese woman. My ex-dad grew up in Flushing, NY and his mom ran a laundry shop. My mom was the daughter of a Taiwanese diplomat to the UN. She tells me that while she was pregnant with me, we shared an elevator in the UN with Fidel Castro. My mom is an odd mix being born in the Mainland, then the family leaving when the communists took over. She spent some years in Argentina and Australia while growing up. She is the first one to talk to me about how Chinese and other Asians think and how it differs from American culture. And when I went to college, I never fit in with the Asian club people because of how Westernized I was. Then I spent about five years waitressing at Japanese restaurants and working the conventions at the major hotels. I sold cars for nine months. Then now it's been about 15 years doing antique shows. I have a good number of Asian friends. Between all of my jobs, I've gotten to experience a lot of humanity, more than the average person. And I don't think it's stereotyping if you've experienced it in person and kept track of what you see people doing around you.

And most of my suggestions to Pitman were not that original, but seemed to me more based in commonsense. Some of my thoughts were even based on classic novels by Dickens, Bronte and Austen, even popular films came to mind. And is it that bad to want him to connect to her on a level more than her beautiful looks? With the divorce rate in the US so high, it means to me that those couples messed up who they picked to spend the rest of their lives with.

What I said about you and 52FM, I meant as a compliment as I know that you helped him in a good way. And up until yesterday, I had a lot of respect for you. :roll:

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#3 Post by I65 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:02 pm

Pockets wrote:You couldn't just pm Bob-san? Instead you had to make a public post to escalate essentially a non-issue. And that thread was posted in the Loveline - A/C section which I thought was there to discuss relationships.
Obviously, this is not a 'non-issue' to me. I could have done this in PM if I chose, but I decided to be up front with you on how I feel, and feel that the rest of the board had a right to know as well. Others may feel the same way, and about the issue, which is not you, but the feeling that distaste cannot be expressed on the forums. If Bob-san has a problem with my opinion on the issue of expressing displeasure in a post on the forum, he can remove it, and it will tell me all I need to know about whether I choose to remain a member of this community.

Pockets wrote: And I don't stereotype, but I do make a lot of observations. I am an American born Chinese woman. My ex-dad grew up in Flushing, NY and his mom ran a laundry shop. My mom was the daughter of a Taiwanese diplomat to the UN. She tells me that while she was pregnant with me, we shared an elevator in the UN with Fidel Castro. My mom is an odd mix being born in the Mainland, then the family leaving when the communists took over. She spent some years in Argentina and Australia while growing up. She is the first one to talk to me about how Chinese and other Asians think and how it differs from American culture. And when I went to college, I never fit in with the Asian club people because of how Westernized I was. Then I spent about five years waitressing at Japanese restaurants and working the conventions at the major hotels. I sold cars for nine months. Then now it's been about 15 years doing antique shows. I have a good number of Asian friends. Between all of my jobs, I've gotten to experience a lot of humanity, more than the average person. And I don't think it's stereotyping if you've experienced it in person and kept track of what you see people doing around you.
I disagree with you. Assigning attitudes or characteristics to entire groups of people based on personal observations is stereotyping. I have worked in the service industry my entire life, and live in one of the most culturally diverse cities in the United States. Businesses actually use my city as a test market for new products because of the diversity here. Yet with all of my observations of human beings of different ethnicities, I manage to post on a message board without saying that this group of people does this, and that group of people feels this.

Pockets wrote: And most of my suggestions to Pitman were not that original, but seemed to me more based in commonsense. Some of my thoughts were even based on classic novels by Dickens, Bronte and Austen, even popular films came to mind. And is it that bad to want him to connect to her on a level more than her beautiful looks? With the divorce rate in the US so high, it means to me that those couples messed up who they picked to spend the rest of their lives with.
Your advice to Pitman was not the subject of this thread, but since you brought it up here, I will respond.

The only thing that I said regarding your suggestions to Pitman was that they seemed dictatorial rather than advisory, as was suggested by Congruous. Obviously Pitman is happy with your advice, and that's all that matters in the end.

And yes, they should connect on a level other than looks, but to me, some of what you were saying that he do seemed forced and out of character. I prefer a more honest approach to self when establishing a relationship, rather than behaving in a way out of character that will lead to disappointment in the end, because you haven't displayed who you truly are. Some people can hold up that kind of facade for years I suppose, but I wouldn't want to. I expressed that to Pitman in my one post, and your approach of leading him through specific steps to win over this girl was more to his liking. As I said on that thread, I will leave him to you for his advice, and I wished him luck, sincerely.

Pockets wrote: What I said about you and 52FM, I meant as a compliment as I know that you helped him in a good way. And up until yesterday, I had a lot of respect for you. :roll:
The fact that you respected me more when I held my tongue when you said things that made me uncomfortable, than when I speak out honestly and openly about how I feel says more about you than it does me, in my humble opinion.

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#4 Post by Just Like Honey... » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:15 am

I'd rather be a gear in a big, deterministic, physical machine than just some random swerving.

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#5 Post by I65 » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:22 am

Just Like Honey... wrote:http://www.chatzy.com/
Does this mean whenever I disagree with someone, I should ask them to join me in a chatroom rather than discuss it on the forum?

Obviously wanting to be able to say that something bothers me, is disturbing people here.

Good fortune.

Apparently I am not allowed to delete my account. I would appreciate if you did that for me, Bob-san.

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#6 Post by 52FM » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:52 am

Like I said in my other post this morning - I sense an ending that I don't want.

But we are guests here (in a "Hotel California" kind of way since we can't delete our accounts or our posts.)

What a weird feeling I suddenly have. How foolish I was to detail so much on this board that is under the control of one individual who I've placed an unearned amount of trust in - simply because we both like the same movie.

For what it's worth, I understand your decision to leave, Ith. As this was the last place I got a chance to hear your "voice", I'll really miss you.

Hugs,
"Pliti"

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#7 Post by Pitman » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:11 pm

My advice to Pitman would be to not play games.
Your advice is well heeded Ith. I'm not interested in playing games at all. I understand your opinion that some of Pocket's suggestions appear to be a little too scripted and controlling. I agree with you there. But we all have our own unique and individual way of providing feedback and support. I am glad to receive her support. That isn't to say I'm going to implement everything she suggests...of course not. I'll take from it what I think is good advice and work with that.
I would however, let her know that you would like to see the relationship eventually develop into more than a friendship. I'm not saying to smother her with how attractive you think she is etc, but be honest about your intention.
I don't think this suggestion is the best course of action. It's too early to do that. Yes, my hope and intention is to see this develop into something more than just a friendship, but even at this point our friendship has yet to take hold. Also, by putting out my long-term intentions at this point may only serve to push her away.
If she says she's not interested, you know where she stands, and you can both decide if you are comfortable continuing on as friends.
She may not be interested now, and the chances are greater that she wouldn't be if I vocalized my intentions. As we get to know each other and spend time together, her feelings may grow for me naturally.

So, your suggestions are listened to and I'll decide what I think is best. The same goes for Pockets. That you find her to be a bigot is somewhat ironic given how you have attacked her with your own style of bigotry:
I don't know much about Asian culture, so I wont address that, but your repeated insistence that all women think the same way you do has been bothering me for awhile now.
That statement in itself is a stereotyping of her. I never got such an extreme reaction to what she said.

Bottom line is, if you are being so effected by this exchange that you now want to delete your account, and leave this forum, my suggestion to you, as you have been kind enough to offer your support for me, is to just step back a bit from this whole thing, take some deep breaths, and ask yourself why you are reacting and feeling this way toward someone, who is anonymous to you, is it because perhaps she has touched a vein of bigotry within yourself that you dislike. To me, this seems to ring true and we can all learn from incidents like these. Maybe take a vacation from this forum. It just seems silly to me to take these postings in a message board like this so seriously.

I offer my view most sincerely.

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#8 Post by Bob_san » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:39 pm

I'll have to read this tonight as I don't have time at work.

My original post being discussed was not soley directed at any one person but people in general. As the admin, I was just trying to find a diplomatic solution but as diplomacy goes I guess it didn't work. Therefore as long as it stays civil you all can work it out amongst yourselves.

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#9 Post by Bob_san » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:55 pm

52FM wrote: What a weird feeling I suddenly have. How foolish I was to detail so much on this board that is under the control of one individual who I've placed an unearned amount of trust in - simply because we both like the same movie.
In the over two years (almost 3) that this forum has been up, what specifically have I done or not done which makes you think you cannot trust?

I said before what my position is on the johnmonkey type of behavior. If there are posts you feel are too personal you can edit or delete them. My main concern is deletion of posts specifically about the film. Also, I can delete a user however I believe all of their posts revert to the "Guest" user id. So the user is gone but the posts remain. Therefore one could delete their personal posts, then I could delete their user id (or just change the name) and the film posts would remain. Unlike imdb or rotten tomatoes, we have a small sampling of discussion about the film and as I said before, I feel deleting a lot of posts would ruin the discussion about it which is why we are here. If enough people revolted and wanted all their posts deleted, then I guess I would simply delete the forum and leave the site up because otherwise whats the point? Of course I would be sorry to see this happen but as admin I am not a puppetmaster, just a webmaster who shares and wanted to share a deep love of this wonderful film. I think because of that the forum has attracted like minded people and therefore we are really not so different, you (and others) and I.

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#10 Post by Ben-B » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:35 pm

Kudos Bobsan.

This forum has given me my life back.

Before this forum existed I was a compulsive LIT fan, a lonely LIT fan, a fan with no one but my stuffed toy owl to talk to about the film. In fact that owl was my best and closest friend. That owl helped me through some rough patches in my life. I'll never forget crying when he told me he felt all warm and fuzzy all over while watching LIT for thr 1st time.

He's still warm and fuzzy to this day! It's unbelievable!... :shock:

:oops: Doh! I think that was overshare.

Oh no! Wheres the 'Delete-All-Personal-Posts-So-You-Don't-Feel-Embarrassed-For-Oversharing' button!? Where is it?????!!

Note: Worried you overshared??- Dont bother looking the button does'nt exist - yet. :wink:

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#11 Post by Bob_san » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:09 am

Ok after reading all this and thinking about it I guess my initial reaction of having tried the diplomatic route and it not working, then the work it out amongst yourselves path was a better idea. In fact I think it was better that Ith opened up a seperate topic rather than get the other post way off topic.

I guess I and the forum have been fortunate up to this point that this is a small forum and the members have all gotten along and there have not been flame wars as on other boards. Therefore it's a surprise but also a learning experience for me too when a conflict like this arises. I saw what was happening and made a request for dealing with it that clearly upset Ith who was not happy with it and decided to start this topic to air her feelings. Then both she and Pockets and others held a rather civil discussion about their differences which is fine as it did not turn into a flame war.

As the moderator I want this forum to succeed and be helpful and useful to people and it upsets me when things like this happen; I want everyone to get along and be friends. However I suppose it is inevitable and there is nothing I can do about it. One of the things about communicating with people on a forum like this is that even if one is just being themself, if they are honest, and not meaning to offend anyone, showing themselves to be naked as a personality, it can still upset other people for whatever reason.

You see SciFi shows on tv where people mind meld and can blend with other people but in reality I think this is a bad idea. I don't think based on what I have seen that human beings without more evolution can handle it. I think they will see the beauty in another person and want to love it, and then the horror of the darkside and want to kill it or squash it.

In real life, people censor themselves and adjust their communication to filter all of that so it is acceptable to other people in everyday life to a certain degree. Most people anyway not the nutcases of which there are plenty. On a forum like this there is no way for people to put up that filter that they can in face to face communications and thus conflicts can arise such as this. I would hope that perhaps this discussion that has arisen can help to either ease the conflict and bring greater understanding or at least bring an acceptable impasse so that the people in conflict can find a way to coexist in this space. It would be unfortunate if some people felt they had to leave based on this but again there is nothing I can do about that
and I guess that is just life and life on the internet. In that case, Godspeed and peace be with you! :)

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#12 Post by silvermoon » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:17 am

this is a very sad day. in all my time here, i have never seen anything like this, but i guess it was inevitable. i dont think we should be pointing the finger of blame at anyone, it is natural that people will disagree, and it is also natural for bob-san to if not try to censor posts, then at least to try to keep things amicable. i wouldnt have stayed for so long if things werent conducted in such a calm manner, and i thank you bob-san for allowing things to remain so genial for so long. i dont think anyone has done anything terrible, and criticisms are there to be made.

i think ith is right to justify herself, and i very much hope that ith does not leave, because she has been perhaps personally my greatest source of support and wisdom over the yrs i have been here, and it would be a tragedy to lose her. ith has, more than anyone else on this forum, shown herself to be a very understanding and considerate person who, with all due respect to pitman, simply made an observation of the statements made by pockets in recent threads, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that all women dont think the same way. if there is then shoot me now. ith doesnt need me to defend her, and i am not trying to, i am simply stating the huge amount of support she has given me and others over the yrs out of appreciation.

i also understand that pockets is just trying to help out pitman, because everyone who starts a relationship is always a little unsure, and i for one have appreciated all the advice that members of this forum have given me, both ith and pockets in recent times. i do think that some of the advice given to pitman was perhaps a little disingenuous, but not to open a big can of worms but as the great jd off scrubs says, noone starts off in a relationship being themselves, you just pretend to be someone that person would like until they trust you. while i dont agree with that way of thinking i can understand that sometimes the harsh truth of dating is like that.

to pockets, thank you for the support you gave me recently regarding my charlotte. it was hard and i just wanted to speak and know that someone was listening. ith, if you do decide to leave this forum, i want to thank you for all the support and advice you have given me over the past couple of yrs. through the hard times, you always made sure i kept a level head and a clear perspective, and i owe much of my current relationship to your guidance. it will be a crying shame to see you go. i very much hope you stay, but of course it is your decision to make. but i hope this can get sorted out amicably.
Last edited by silvermoon on Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#13 Post by Pitman » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:08 pm

I would just like to echo the previous two posts and say it would indeed be a shame if any member on this board feels they have no other course of action than to leave and no longer be a part of this unique and intelligent community because of differences of opinion with another member.

I'm thinking that after the dust has settled, and after looking back on what was said in the clutch of the emotion, a more amicable solution can be agreed upon.

I personally see no reason why two members who disagree with each other can not co-exist in the same forum. Even if it means just totally ignoring each others' posts.

So, Ith, hope you don't disappear for good.

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#14 Post by Bob_san » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:17 pm

silvermoon wrote:it is natural that people will disagree, and it is also natural for bob-san to if not try to censor posts, then at least to try to keep things amicable.
Thank you for your thoughtful post (and Pitman too!).
However I want to clarify that I have not censored anything.
Perhaps that's not the word you meant to use but I have not done that. I have tried to moderate and use diplomacy but that's all.

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#15 Post by silvermoon » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:40 pm

all apologies, bob-san! that DID come out the wrong way, i didnt mean that as a personal accusation, rather paraphrasing what some other people have said. and horribly shanking it. :oops: sorry...i'll go back to school this instant

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#16 Post by Bob_san » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:03 pm

No worries, shanking happens! :shock:

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#17 Post by Bob_san » Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:36 pm

I have received word that Ith is gone and will not be coming back.
I am locking this topic.

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