my 'charlotte'

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52FM
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#161 Post by 52FM » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:00 pm

Silvermoon -
You know, I was thinking about this for a while; for what's it's worth (and admitedly it's not much given you live in Europe) I'll bet my daughter (19) would be able to introduce you to at least 5-10 girls that would love to meet someone like you. Not an exaggeration - she has LOTS of friends and makes new ones it seems every week. She is loving college and I am loving her loving it. Not to say anything would become of any of those relationships - but believe me, her and her friends (and often with my 20 year old son and his friends) have GREAT times together (including a couple of dorm like sleepovers at our house.) You sound a lot like her in many ways, and also a lot like her boyfriend (that I am gradually getting to like more and more.)

The point is - there is a big world out there - and you may be missing it by seeming to want to be "tied down". Be friends - with her and other girls and other guys and enjoy your college years. THEY WILL BE OVER ALL TOO SOON!

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#162 Post by silvermoon » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:10 am

oh...dear...what i have to say will please noone, but its happened, so theres no choice but to say it. i'm prepared for the flak to come...

firstly, with regards to the journal, i gave it to her the day before our final exam. we have been speaking a lot recently, and one time she asked about it, and said she wanted to see it. so i delivered it to her through her mailbox and left without stopping to say hello (i hadnt yet seen her since breaking up). i had added to it since our 100th day, but only with one entry, just to say that i was ready to move forward with her even if she wasnt yet (wait, it gets worse...). she later read it (fully or not, i'm unsure) after the exams and phoned me to tell me there was a mistake regarding our first day. i told her i had written the entry the day it happened and was not just recalling it, and now she wants to find the original journal.

anyway, my mother came up to uni to visit me yesterday, for 2 days and a night. i met charlotte just before my mother arrived, and we had a great few hrs together. my mother and i had dinner, then walked around the town, then returned to my home for the night. she took the bed, and i was to take the floor. at this point, i called charlotte like i promised, and we spoke briefly. but at one point, she asked me why i hadnt asked to stay at her place for the night this time. she knew my mother was here, and every time before i had gone to stay with her for the night because she didnt want me being uncomfortable sleeping on the floor or in the living room. and this time, when she asked, i hesitated, and then said ok, i'll come tonight. and then i spent the night at her place, sleeping next to her. when i arrived, i was apprehensive, and sat away from her at first. but she was tired, and laid down on the bed, looked at me, then moved up and patted the empty side of the bed. i laid down next to her, she smiled, and then reached for my arm and pulled it round her. she kissed me gently, and we fell asleep in each others arms once again.

the next morning, i left early to go home, and she was very tired and hugged me gently as i left. i was to go home, my other home, the next morning, and she was to come as well (not to my home but to the city). i said i would call her later to discuss how to meet up the next day. when my mother left, i went home myself, preparing to sleep. i had barely slept the night before with her, and was looking forward to getting some rest. then she called me, and asked for my help regarding her computer, and i eventually offered to go and drop off some equipment, seeing as she was in a bit of a hurry. i arrived and looked to leave after i dropped it off, but i went inside anyway to look at the problem. once it was sorted, she laid down on her bed, and asked me to stay with her until she fell asleep before going. again she moved up and asked me to lie next to her. i did, and laid there waiting for her to sleep. and then she cried. just a single tear rolled down her face. and she said she missed home. i held her tight and whispered words of support in her ear. she hugged me back, held me tight, and laughed gently. she said that curiously, she was very tired but talking to me today kept her awake (it usually knocks her out in seconds), so we talked further. little things, things about family, about going home. and then, out of nowhere, she asked a somewhat surprising and strange request (nothing bad, but a form of gentle and INNOCENT intimacy). i had no idea why, but i complied. gently and slowly at first, but as these things do it became passionate very quickly, and she responded in kind. strictly passionate kissing and nothing else, but it was surprising considering our current relationship, and especially that she requested it. it was followed by some humourous chit-chat ('baby shouldnt be allowed to do things like that...'), and i responded with my own brand of self deprecation. apparently this baby isnt so innocent anymore, i said, and she responded that even if i wasnt innocent she would still 'like me'. not love, as she might usually say, but like. hmm...anyway, eventually we fell asleep, and came home this morning. she held me on the train home, and rested her head on my shoulder as she slept. we parted ways to return to uni in a few days, and she went to meet jughead (not staying with him but meeting him for this evening). i was somewhat amused by....marks of passion left on her :oops: , and what jughead would make of it ('were u punched in the neck...?!'). anyway, i'll probably be returning to uni with her, otherwise thats the story so far.

regarding other girls, i've met quite a few at uni, who i get along with well. however, i just dont envisage a long term relationship with any of them. i'm perfectly happy for them to remain friends and nothing more. i think charlotte and i clicked initially because we are both looking for the same thing, meaningful long term relationships. a couple of my female friends found it 'sweet' that we valued our relationship the way we did and not just looking for a fling or fun in the short run, and maybe the perception is that its valued less at this point in time, at this age, not among those i know anyway. maybe its wrong to hang on to it like that. again, i'm more confused than ever. i maintain all along that i've come to a point where i dont worry about this relationship going south because i tell myself i am prepared to drop her if i ever felt the need, but that doesnt mean i dont want it to work. i do, badly. shes still the special one to me, and the more people i meet, the more apparent it becomes. but i know that this goes against everything people here, and everywhere else tbh, have told me. i'm sorry about that, i know everyone means well. but i have to convince myself i dont want her first before i can do anything, because atm i cant do it. perhaps the best thing to do is to simply take on board everything and post no more because there are so many repetitions i'm wasting everyones time, which i apologise for. simply, i will take in all the advice and try to convince myself of the right thing to do. and then, maybe do it. but for now, i think posts have become trying beyond belief, and i shall stop.

so, flame on.............now.

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#163 Post by I65 » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:27 am

What can we say that we haven't said already? What can we say that you haven't already said to yourself?

If her "innocent request" was that you mark up her neck for her planned encounter with Jughead, well, I'm sure that you don't need me or anyone else to tell you what games she is playing...

As I read these posts of yours, I, as I am sure many other's do, worry about what damage this girl is doing to you. What problems you will face in trying to have a healthy relationship with someone when/if this one ends.

But I continue to marvel in your bravery in putting yourself out there, in coming here and posting, even when you think we are going to "flame" you. I think that in all of this, that at least helps you to continue to have some perspective, rather than getting "lost".

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#164 Post by I65 » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:36 am

"but i have to convince myself i dont want her first before i can do anything, because atm i cant do it. perhaps the best thing to do is to simply take on board everything and post no more because there are so many repetitions i'm wasting everyones time, which i apologise for. simply, i will take in all the advice and try to convince myself of the right thing to do. and then, maybe do it. but for now, i think posts have become trying beyond belief, and i shall stop. "

I don't know if you added this later, but I sure didn't see it the first time I read your post (obviously if you read my previous one).

And I still stand by what you say. While no one can make, or expect, you to continue to post here, I do feel that it is an honest and open way to keep your perspective in this relationship, and even if you decide not to post in regards to it here, I would encourage you to continue to put your thoughts down on paper in some manner. It can help you to keep your focus, and going back and reading through the posts, or journal, or whatever method you use, can help you to discover patterns that could be missed otherwise, good and bad...

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#165 Post by Congruous » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:35 am

Are you drawn to the woman, the drama, or the pain? Remember the line in "Eternal Sunshine," early in the movie when Joel and Clem were sitting inside in Montauk- this was before they knew each other- and Joel said to himself, "I fall in love with any woman who pays attention to me?"
"Are there no more arrows left?"

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#166 Post by silvermoon » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:09 pm

ok i've given it a LOT of thought, and here i offer my final conclusion. firstly, charlotte.

she is still hung up on jughead. everyone, including her, tell me that she used to really like him and always talked about him. theres obviously something very strong there. i know he was there with her through difficult times, and the bond they formed in that time was very strong. i will never have enough to allow her to transcend that. and theres proof in that she has never let him go, despite her knowledge that he would be moving away, and also that she has still maintained their friendship despite his mistreatment of her in recent months. it would have been so easy to let him go, to let him out of her life at that point, but she has still contrived ways to meet him. its fitting that she ended up with him on our 100th day, a day she promised to be with me. simply, if she truly valued me, she would have taken this perfect opportunity and just let him go, and she would have nothing to worry about. but she didnt. she has gone to him, time and again, sometimes without my knowledge. that was the final straw, and ultimate proof. she doesnt value or consider my feelings the way she would if she really cared. she has always said that she doesnt love him. i think that is true. its like i'm the guy she 'should' like because i am kind and understanding to her, and hes the guy who she feels strongly about and passionate for, but doesnt see a secure future with. ironically, in this movie, the girl doesnt love either guy. now theres an interesting 'love' triangle (with little actual love). i think she is the type who finds it hard to sever ties with people because she doesnt want to hurt them, and she wants a safety net. i should know, i am like that myself. that is one of the reasons why she asked if i would still be her friend if we broke up, on the off chance that if she never met the right person she could pick the next best option. and jughead too. i feel sorry for him because she is playing games with us both, and the funny thing is he is supposed to be worse off in this situation than me! shes leading us on, and neither of us has a hope.

i dont think she loves me either. she told me that i fit her idea of the ideal man almost perfectly. but that isnt enough to love me. i just think she is with me because she hopes one day she will. the general perception of a gentleman, someone who can be there to love and support you, to offer security for your life, is someone a little like me. i mean that in the sense that he has to be kind, polite, supportive and caring, with prospects and a sense of responsibility and maturity (and if i keep going the way i am maybe i will become such a person). maybe i'm wrong about this part, but if she loved me she wouldnt have the need to play games with me, pulling me this way and that. i understand that she may want to test me, see my limits, push me to the edge to find out how far i will go, how much i value her, but this is too much. it has become inconsiderate, trying to provoke jealousy. she wants to feel needed. she wants to love me but she knows she doesnt. i think she rejected jughead the first time for me because she was still strongly attracted to him but didnt want to burn all bridges, and she knew that i was the type of person who she may love and see a future with, because of my nature, which appealed to her. but she found she didnt. i am the archetype but not the person of her dreams. you can picture the perfect person but it is a dream, and life doesnt present these things to people often. its not something you can ever expect to come true. and when i came along, she saw a sort of embodiment, the closest she has come to meeting her ideal man, and she tried to fall in love with me. but she couldnt because, as she said, we are really so different. i dont think i'm wrong in saying that many women want a man who is caring, close to their family and romantic (just as men want a woman who is beautiful, smart, sassy and caring). but its the details, the personality that matters, and ours dont fit. and when she realised that, she started trying to pick holes in me to prove to herself that i wasnt right. build me up to break me down. i'm generally quite mature in relationships (and i hope that means i can learn the things i cant do now), i'm not afraid to say, and i never have to worry about it being a flaw. but she pounced on a mistake of mine and made it true to herself. the truest thing she said was that maybe she wasnt what i wanted, any more than i was right for her. i didnt want to believe it then. she kept us together because i was complicit (more on that later) and she wanted to see if i was the right one. superficially i was, but i'm not. its all in the body language. apprehension, doubt, secrets and mind games. these are never things she would inflict on someone she wanted to be with. she would know their effect and how it would deny her what she wanted.

i think her past has a lot to do with it. shes been through a lot and i get the idea that the more she goes through, the stricter her standards become. and now they are just impossible. i know about my limitations but i also know that she found a caring and understanding person in me, but it still wasnt enough. the more i proved myself, the more she wanted. i think i came along at the wrong time. at others, she may been more willing to fall in love with me, if that was what she really wanted. i could never answer that for her. but at this point in her life, i dont think there are many people who can be that person to her. i was the best person i could be, and she wanted something different. but i am confident in myself and i dont deny that there are others out there who would appreciate me. some i know already, and theres a start. but i'll give it time to get over her first.

and finally, i want to say that i feel sorry for her, because amongst all the games and indecision, she is a victim of circumstance. her past has twisted her ideals and perceptions, her general feelings towards other people. and she allows herself to be manipulated without being assertive. jughead tried to convince her that he loved her, but oh what a coincidence, he decides to leave a bombshell like that until after i came along, by which time a sufficient threat had emerged to act. hes using her as much as she is manipulating us. and she allows it. it is very difficult, might it be said, for the beautiful and smart like her. everyone wants her, and it can become difficult to distinguish between those who act like they love her to be with her, and those who truly do. beauty attracts all sorts, and obviously among them u get real nasty pieces of work, disingenuous types with no love on their minds. and sifting through the genuine and true is a tough business that forces people to be ruthless and testing. i can understand why she may play games with me even if i dont approve. i have to confess that i have a big part in this as well, in that i have realised for a long time that she may not be right for me, but have failed to act in the hope i get proved wrong. i'm no more assertive, or less manipulative than anyone else involved. i hope to rectify that and set her free. i just need to tell myself i can do it.

now, onto myself (halfway there, turning out to be a marathon, and likely most is just false!).

i've always been content to be by myself before uni. i made lots of friends simply because i am not an antagonistic person and i can accomodate all types. but i was always happy not to see any of them, barring a relative few (of which my previous charlotte was one, and the rest consist of best friends). i've always valued true friendships and relationships. and i've found very few in my life. there are of course parents and relatives, the people who i cry for when they suffer. and there are several very close friends who i know i can rely on. but thats it. my previous charlotte turned out only to be a friend and will never be anything more (my fault entirely for building her up in the first place, because she never led me on). and i've waited a long time for a girl who would be willing to forge a strong and deep relationship with me.

when charlotte came along, i was instantly smitten. here was the beautiful and smart girl of my dreams. how fitting that she says she didnt think the same at first, because i think she is superficially remarkable but personality-wise problematic (partly because she is superficially remarkable), and i am on the surface unremarkable but prove my worth the more you know about me. and so initially, when she was so giving and open about herself, and so obviously pushing for a long term relationship, i thought i had struck gold. for the first couple of months, she was perfect. in every respect. no debate at all. but as we grew to know each other, i found that she was unsure about our relationship for the first time, and i was caught between my initial views of her and her increasing insecurity. i'd always been happy to be alone, but now i felt i couldnt go back to that. i didnt want to have to go back to being by myself, after having gotten used to her being there for me i just felt i didnt want to be without it. so i amplified my initial feelings for her and hung onto them, and still do. i know what is right, and that isnt, but logic and emotions dont mix. do i love her? i dont know. she was right in saying that i am kind to everyone, not just her. i suppose there is every chance that i dont feel any different about her, because what is there to contrast it with? i am the same as her, i want to love her because of what she represents, and let it overwhelm the feelings that truly matter, the ones that make me doubt her motivations and integrity. love isnt about hanging on for dear life, its about being free. and i feel i need to make an effort to be with her, and she with me, and it just isnt right. i know that, and wish it werent so.

i think, congruous, that the line is very appropriate to me. i have always wanted to build a proper relationship, and that desire is swamping everything else, logic above all. i think i allowed myself to believe that because she showed me her true self that she was being honest with me and that was enough, but i dont think i like what that person does to me. she is great but some of the things she does are too much. i tried to understand everything she did, which translates to lying to myself to convince myself she was right. but ultimately, one thing that has always been there, from the beginning, is what derailed it. for the rest of our relationship, if we were to prolong it, the shadow of jughead (interesting payoff, that...) would loom over us always, because i know she can never let him go. if she could she would have done so already. but she has become more enthusiastic in seeing him, when tbh it would be easier to push him away. i dont know what they did together before i came along but she will always remember me as the person who came along after him. and i cant be in a relationship where she has one eye on another person. thats not right (obvious, no?...lol). simply, lying to me (lie of omission) about seeing him the other time was the final straw, and our relationship has been struggling since (actually, long before that, but i cant stand any more after that). i think the ideal man she looks for is a mix of us both, my responsibility and care, the one the parents approve of, with his personality. i dont think she will ever find that person. and, being brutally honest, i dont think i could support her if she ever met that person, because i would be jealous. i think that proves i dont love her.

we've been lying to ourselves and each other. i can say that i dont regret it, because ultimately i was prepared for a relationship that wouldnt last when she mentioned jughead (over and over). i had fun. i met a beautiful girl and learnt of the troubles of relationships along the way. i'm not that sad atm. i think i know that it wasnt meant to be. it wasnt my fault, and i dont blame her for being honest and realising i wasnt the right one. these things happen. i realise that amongst all this, i am still technically with her. i can say that i still dont have the will to act yet, but i hope that i can discover that strength soon, and end the suffering for us both. she was my first love, and the rest of my relationships from now on will have a lot to live up to. i look back on this favourably. we're still good friends, and i think that is the right relationship for us. now i just need to end it (i know i am unconsciously writing as if we have already broken up. i apologise for that). but tbh from now on, i am not troubled by my future. i am confident that i will meet others who i will love as well, and who will love me. i learnt a lot about myself from charlotte (superfluous or not? i'll decide later) and i know the person i am. i'm not worried that she represents such a substantial relationship in my life. i'll try not to compare her with those to follow, because having discovered things above myself, and what i want, i think i'll be looking for someone different. the future is scary, but holds so much promise.
Last edited by silvermoon on Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#167 Post by 52FM » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:25 pm

Silvermoon -
If you were my son, I would give you a big hug and tell you how very PROUD I am of you! You put so much of yourself into all this - you gave it thought and time; you handled everything with a great blend of logic and emotion; you never shied away from hearing comments you might not have wanted to hear; you never took anything as final - but you thought and rethought and decided and reflected and reconsidered. In other words - all the things anyone shoudl do in a serious realtionship but sadly so few do. You have a maturity well beyond your years - and I can't help but think that in the end that was the largest conlifct between you and "Charlotte".

Your decision is the right one - I'm sure we all agree. But it had to be YOUR decision and I can see that is truly is. I feel a sort of relief in your writing that you are at peace with it.

Who knows what the future may bring for you? I think a serious relationship with her at this young age would have led to serious hurt for you at some point. Strangley enough she may grow and learn from the experience and at some point in the future some young man will be better off from you taking this step.

And who knows - some day that young man may actually be you.

I've alluded ot my marriage problems before. I actually have thoguht after reading your posts that it's not necessarily that we are wrong for each other - it's just that we never gave ourselves a chance to grow away from each other. We met at 18 and married after college. Had we met later (after we both matured and had other experiences) or if we broke up and gotten those experiences and then matched up again - I have thought we might not have the issues we're dealing with.

The "moral" of the story is - you have to do what you feel is right for you. Without doing that, the relationship can't help but eventually suffer.

Good luck with your discussions with her. Be strong - don't let any tears or cute smile lead you to rethink this.

And let me be the first of the "We Are Awake" group hug!

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#168 Post by Guest » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:26 pm

I haven't read everything in this whole thing yet but from what I can gather, this is something many (of not all!) of us have gone through in some form or another and certainly seen others we know go through something like it as well.
It's an important and good learning experience of the head and the heart and you just have to go through it to get to the other side!
The other side being a more experienced and wiser you.

Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all goes the saying.
I know it's hard to believe this now but in the future years and years from now, you will look back on this and treasure your good memories but realize that in the end it was not meant to be and you did the right thing.
And then think about OMG what would've happened if you did end up together for life?!

After going through this and others you will be in a better place to know when you have met the "right" person. It may not be the person of your dreams, but it will be the person you can live and love and grow with in a really nice way. Dreams are just that and sometimes reality is the better choice! :)

As far as your comment earlier about going on too long and all that in the forum, don't worry about it. That's what the lounge is for and people can choose to read it or not. I had no idea what sort of community would spring up from this forum about a nice little film but I think it's a great one and one we can all be happy and proud of. Thanks!

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#169 Post by silvermoon » Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:38 pm

i had 'the talk' with charlotte recently. i said everything i wanted, all i had detailed in my earlier post. i stayed strong, and when she asked me if i just wanted to be friends, i said yes. but i made a mistake. i couldnt say that i didnt still want her. under different circumstances she would still be perfect. our conversation started over the phone and ended at her place. as the conversation went on, i realised more and more that i wasnt willing to be in a relationship with her if she couldnt commit fully, but i still wanted her.

in the following days we were in limbo. she talked to her friends about our relationship, and they chastised her for treating me so insensitively. while i had bought her gifts, given her a journal, made so many small romantic gestures (their words), treated her with so much love and respect (she particularly likes it when i pull her shirt down over her back to keep her warm, as opposed to groping her like a neanderthal), she had been holding back. eventually, because we saw each other at uni every day, we grew close again. closer than ever.

for one, i overcame one of my previous fears. i'm very shy, and in the past she had asked me to sing to her, and i had always mmmed and ahhhhed and finally declined, which disappointed her greatly. but this time, she asked me to sing to her, and after a bit of hesitation, i said i would call her back. i think she thought i wouldnt go ahead with it, and rightly so. and so, when she picked up the phone, she must have been surprised to hear me crooning on the other end. i could hear her laughing in delight, and eventually when i finished she complimented me and thanked me, and said i should do it for my flatmates, who would love it. but that was one of many things this week which happened where it had failed in the past, and accelerated our relationship to a delirious pace.

she has lately been meeting many new friends. one of them, a guy several yrs her senior, had been excessively contacting her. in the space of a few days of meeting her, he had asked to meet her, at a cafe, a bar, and sent her innumerable txt messages, culminating in a forced 3hr phone conversation in the middle of the night (her culture, bizarre as it may seem, means she is practically not allowed to hang up on him). she told me not to worry, because she had no interest in him, and she had rebuffed all his requests. but also, she revealed that she felt a little uncomfortable about my lack of interest in his advances. i had always said, with jughead as well, that i trusted her, and this time was no different. but she said that she loved very much the freedom and trust that i gave her, very different to other men, but hoped to see some form of reaction. 'just to know that i care', i said, and she smiled and agreed. or else, theres no difference between friends and lovers. and so i told her how i felt about him, that it was blindingly obvious what he was trying to do, even with the knowledge that she had a boyfriend, and she told me that she would take appropriate action and distance herself from him. i never asked, but she volunteered it. she later revealed that after speaking to her friends, she had noticed a change. she said she had not really cared about me per se before, but after recognition of my respect for her, she had begun to love me back. she'd been moving forward, and i was about to find out how.

recently we have been seperately looking for a home for next yr. i had planned to move into a house with some other friends, and she had planned to move elsewhere. we went to a bar together, and sat and talked. out of nowhere, she asked me why i hadnt asked her to move in with her. i told her i had planned to before but from things she had said, felt that she wasnt comfortable with it. we sat in silence, and then i asked her to move in with me. she turned and looked into my eyes, then said yes. i hugged her, and she wouldnt let go. eventually due to circumstance we had to move seperately, but i felt a massive connection that night. she smiled and hugged me constantly, talked to me in the most respectful manner, and put my wellbeing before her own, persuading me to practically abandon her next yr so that i would have a place to live, and leaving her with nothing certain and a lot of stress. i really could feel the difference in her attitude towards me. from wanting to move in together, to fending off advances from other men, she had changed. i feel she had finally taken steps towards giving me her heart, the way she had always said she would, in time. there was one more step we had not taken.

in days after, i felt a marked difference in our relationship. she was very close and intimate, always smiling, the old look of innocence back. she was still willing to tease me, but she had begun to compliment me with greater frequency, which she rarely did before. she was completely willing to see me at any time, asking me to stay with her, to go with her wherever she went, holding each other tight at night. we were getting more and more physical as time passed, but she still did not feel ready for sex.

the day after i had found a place to live next yr, i met up with her at uni. i sent her a txt, without purpose, just to say that she was beautiful. she came back with a huge smile on her face, and held me close as we walked. in our lecture, she rested her head on my shoulder, and we went into town together and had a blast. the following day, she went to meet some ppl, and came to my place late at night. i cooked her dinner, a horrible dinner, and we had a perfect evening. she was so unabashedly intimate, even in front of my friends, many of whom she had not met before, and when we had finished, we went to bed together. it was far too late for her to go home, so she stayed. she was extremely tired anyway. we laid in bed together, and spoke in hushed tones. we gently kissed each other, and then fiercely. and then she asked, do you want to have sex, and i said yes, if you are ready. and she said she was, and not to worry about her. i was so happy, not because of the act itself, but because i felt she had finally begun to really trust me, and believe in our future, and commit to me. and so we did. i called her my angel, and she called me the nicest man in the world. it was my first time, and it was amazing. i looked into her eyes, told her i loved her, and she smiled and said a deeply heartfelt thank you. and she said she loved me. it was going smoothly, and she actually asked me several times if it really was my first time because i handled the situation so well. and then...she fell asleep. halfway through, while hugging me. suffice to say the night ended early, and she awoke the next morning feeling very guilty and hiding her face in shame, and it took a great deal of gentle encouragement to brighten her up again. i said it was an amazing night, and she said she was deeply embarassed that the experience, which i would remember for the rest of my life, would be of her falling asleep. but she said it was very good as well, and i had surprised her (lol she is borderline narcoleptic, but still...). anyway, i think she still feels embarassed by it even now. but thats the latest.

i think talking to her friends and family (who are flying me out to meet them in the summer, such is their desire to meet the person for whom so many good words have been said) made her realise the type of person i was, one who treated her right, one who could be trusted. i have always known she doesnt treat sex lightly, and that was probably one of the biggest barriers we could overcome, and we have now. thats not to say the aftermath will be perfectly rosy, but leading up to it she obviously felt very strongly for me, and overcame so much of her past and fears. she keeps referring to going to her home country with me, meeting her parents, showing me the sights, talk of the future. i dont think she's afraid to trust me anymore. and i'm so happy we've reached this stage. now, if she says she loves me, i dont doubt it for a second. and i love her back.

i think i should add that from now on any posts, if any, will be overwhelmingly positive, because i know i want her now, and tbh i think i can sleep safely without worrying about her feelings towards me. i think we turned a corner

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#170 Post by I65 » Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:37 pm

This is quite touching, and quite a life changing moment that you have relived for us here. I hope that your future with Charolette is everything that you want it to be.

OH....and she still needs to lose Jughead. :P

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#171 Post by Congruous » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:53 am

Whatever
"Are there no more arrows left?"

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#172 Post by K » Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:13 pm

:?: :roll:

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#173 Post by silvermoon » Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:32 pm

lol i think i finally went too far...

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#174 Post by K » Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:45 pm

What do you mean by that?

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#175 Post by silvermoon » Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:45 pm

i've been posting my story of my charlotte for about 5 months now, and its been a bit of a drama. like the usual suspects, twisting this way and that. anyway, my short-sightedness has meant that the kind people here have been guiding me with sage advice and generally watching out for my well-being, for which i am eternally grateful. except of course that i ultimately end up blindly following a different route, one which is obviously risky and sometimes outright stupid, and making an arse of myself in the process. anyway, for the longest time they have tolerated my behaviour, but i think that is about to end. i've betrayed their trust once too many times i think.

that said, her parents are seemingly eager to meet me and i'll be going in the summer and staying with them, all at their request. this is all very strange. why would a parent want to meet you so badly that they would be willing to fly you out and pamper you for a month based on a few good words that someone has said about you? bizarre...

oh, and valentine's day rocked hard. bought her 4 different coloured roses, and everywhere i went i caught envious eyes. oh, and i got her 13 heart shaped balloons from a restaurant, and as we were walking home, trailing them behind us, another girl was chasing her boyfriend asking him 'why didnt you get me that??'. and she got me two gifts to 'help the little boy to grow up'. one was a nice aftershave (which she spent a long time picking, she tried 30 scents at the shop before plumping for this one, a good choice at that), and the other was...private.

this week has been the best and our strongest i would say since we met. in terms of the amount of trust we have given each other, and just the general amount of enjoyment we had this week, it is unsurpassed. i dont mean that in the sense of what happened but why and what it meant to us. these were big steps that she has finally taken, and i cant help but take that as an encouraging sign for the way she feels about me.

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#176 Post by Guest » Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:48 pm

silvermoon wrote:she keeps referring to going to her home country with me, meeting her parents, showing me the sights, talk of the future. i dont think she's afraid to trust me anymore. and i'm so happy we've reached this stage. now, if she says she loves me, i dont doubt it for a second. and i love her back.
Sounds like a fairy tale ending! :D I am very happy for you both.
What country is she from? Japan?!

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#177 Post by silvermoon » Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:36 pm

thanks a lot, i'm obviously very happy as well. its taken a lot of time and effort but i feel our relationship has finally stabilised. i wouldnt say its an ending just yet but i can certainly say that we dont feel the need to worry about each other anymore. she even told me that she misses jughead the other day, and yet it still doesnt bother me. she had hoped that i could get used to her talking about him as a friend only, and i think i can do that now. our relationship has gone so far, and we've given so much emotionally i think we mean a lot to each other. to me she's everything. thats not to say we dont have the occasional minor tiff but at least now the time taken to resolve them is significantly reduced. for one, she went out with a few female friends the other night. nothing there u'd think, but she told me that the guy who keep harassing her went with them, and they drank together at a club. i had already told her that i was uncomfortable with them meeting each other, and she had agreed that he was overstepping the mark. and so i thought, she's gone out with him against my wishes and her own judgement, and i got angry at her and hung up abruptly. and 15mins later, we had resolved the situation, she had explained to me why she went out, how he had forced himself upon them and how it was unavoidable and she would avoid that situation from now on. and we met up an hr later and embraced, and everything was rosy again. actually, he even called her up one day and asked bluntly, 'do you like me or not?' and she answered simply no, reminded him for the umpteenth time that she had a boyfriend and dismissed him just like that. it seems like it would take something huge to affect us now. my previous charlotte warned me that she had to be doing something to lead all these guys on and think they had a chance, but then my flatmate told me that its just the way guys are towards beautiful girls, and nothing will stop a certain type of person from making advances on her. and i'd probably agree. i wont deny that she used to play mindgames on me when we first started seeing each other, but i have noticed them reduce significantly recently, to the point where our respect for each other is palpable. the only minor sticking point is that she has started to take on a lot of work, academic of course and also teaching her language, as well as her social preoccupations. perhaps we will be seeing each other less from now, which saddens me, but no matter. at least i dont have to worry. one thing extra, charlotte suspects that jughead may have told his friend that she is his girlfriend, which irritates me no end for the total lack of respect. i've witnessed a lot of that recently from so many people around her, but tbh i think my flatmate is perfectly right in saying that, especially in university where relationships are perhaps more tenuous, i would have to expect this behaviour from others due to her beauty and sparkling personality, and would be highly foolish to expect everyone to play fair. and yet, i understand and feel able to cope with being with her now. i feel we are strong together.

and as for her nationality, she is not japanese but from a similar culture. shes from korea. i'm a BBC by the way, that is a british born chinese. i think many of the social issues faced by the japanese are familiar to her. and i should be getting a first hand look at her country in the summer. which i honestly cant wait for, especially as her family is so welcoming of me.

i think part of our fascination with each other is our vastly different social backgrounds. i've found so many alien aspects of her culture that i simply dont understand. for one, there is a large influence of power by age and gender. the older you are, the more power you have over others, even among youths only a yr apart, and males are dominant over females. thats not always the case between friends but strictly speaking it should be. and its sad to see some of her supposed 'friends' abusing this and taking advantage of her youth. i think part of the reason she likes me is because i treat her at eye level (actually shes marginally older than me but age has never been an issue) and we respect each other equally (i love that word 'respect'....). jughead actually kindly pointed out that he thought that we would not last because once our fascination with each others cultures wore off then we'd have nothing to keep us together (ignorant prick...). but he wouldnt be the first person to see his expectations defied. others have said that she shouldnt talk to me about past relationships because i couldnt handle it, and other such advice, and i'm pleased to say that i have defied them all and we are very happy together. in fact its the best period of my life.

i'm also pleased to say that i have yet to meet anyone of her nationality who does not think well of me. every person i hear has given me their full support on every issue, be it regarding others harassing her, or just commenting on my personality, or looks (you know people are being kind for the sake of it when they're scraping that barrel). every person i run into knows who i am, and always has nice words to say. and sometimes random people who i have never spoken to just wave or smile, or come up to me and chat. its bizzare but i'm really pleased that i'm fitting in so well into her life. the next step is to learn the language and finally engage properly. her parents hope that i will be able to communicate with them a little and i dont want to disappoint.

on a different topic, regarding sex, she recently said to me that she 'wasnt my sex partner'. she was a little concerned about it one evening, and so i reassured her that it was of little to no importance to me in comparison with building a solid relationship with her. i think the words that resonated most with her were when i said that i know that sex can be a good or bad thing, good in bringing people physically and emotionally closer, and bad if it begins to dominate the relationship, as it can because it is a pleasurable act, and becomes the reason for people to be together. and i reminded her, and she knew but wanted to hear i think, that i wasnt that type of person and that i was with her because i love her, and had no ulterior motives. and so she smiled, said she was sorry (for wrongly accusing me), and we made love (not 'had sex'), deeply and emotionally intense. and she was very happy and all smiles the next morning, and we had taken another major step, and her view of me improved yet again. i'm finding that relationships take a lot of work, and a lot is to do with timing, as much as simple emotional connection. and i'd like to think that between us we have adequate...managerial skills to keep things running smoothly.

back to a completely different topic, i sadly had to pass up an opportunity to see a traditional japanese wedding as i will be occupied with exam preparation in that period. i would have loved to have seen that, a once in a lifetime opportunity. maybe it will still happen, i'll have to consult my schedule.

anyway, thats the latest, and all is bright and rosy. long may it continue

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#178 Post by silvermoon » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:57 pm

today was one of those perfect, romantic days that can only happen with someone you love. began straightforwardly, and ended spectacularly.

i attended uni in the morning, picked up my exam results (pleasantly surprising) and met charlotte immediately after. we had a bland lunch - mcdonalds, on her insistence, bland especially next to the expensive japanese restaurant the previous night - and tried to resolve a legal issue with an accomodation office to no avail. so the day began in a disappointing manner as she appears to have lost a sum of money to ruthless business, but i think she was impressed with the way i spoke on her behalf, with passion and determination. and like before, she likes very much that i havent left her to rot and are fighting on her behalf to find her a place for next year.

anyway, so we walked dejected (actually i looked a lot more disappointed than her, she hugged me tightly, for trying so hard for her) back to her place. and on the way down some stairs, she stumbled and almost fell. i reacted quickly and reached over and grabbed her, and she smiled so wide and said 'thank you!' and said that she had had a similar accident before just like the one she almost had. and we got to the bottom of the stairs, and she said thank you again, and held me close. and all the while, i was still trying to get through to someone who could help me solve that legal issue, but i turned to her smiled and said 'no problem, just be careful'. and we walked back to her place, where i left her for the afternoon to finish some work, and arranged to maybe see a film in the evening.

so i called her, and after a short while she decided with some hesitation to see the film (casanova - how apt), and i went and found that she was very tired but still insisted on going out. so we went, and sat through the film, and fed each other popcorn, sensuously brushing her lips with the tips of the fingers, and periodically leant over to kiss each other and stare into each others eyes. and we held hands throughout, and stroked each others fingers, just like the first time. and it was just so natural, and never felt forced. it felt like we still had the spark we always had, undiminished.

we left the cinema, and saw a funny sight, of a young couple, perhaps our age. it was freezing outside, and the girl was trying to wrap up warm, gloves, scarf and all, and she tried to give her handbag to her boyfriend to hold, but he was having none of it. he literally shoved it back into her hands, tucked his into his pockets and proceeded to walk with his hood up, ignoring the poor girl, even crossing the road seperately ('thats the real casanova right there', and of course jokes about how i'm no better, but thats a load of hooey...). if they'd just turned round they would have seen a couple smiling and laughing, standing side by side, hands together braving the cold, shivering but nonetheless ignorant of the chill, and everything except each other.

we proceeded back to her home, where we began to make dinner, late at night. and was interrupted when i told her to look outside, and caught sight of the weather. it was snowing for only the second time this yr, and the first time i had just missed meeting her to go for a walk (because i overslept), and this opportunity wasnt going to escape us. we grabbed our coats and rushed outside, and held each other closer than ever as we walked. we turned a corner, into the middle of the road, and stood and embraced warmly, and after a while i whispered into her ear 'i love you and this is one of the best moments of my life', and she held me closer still. and we just stood there, in one of those filmic moments, so romantic and it just felt right. everything felt right. that was until the guys living in the room down the road turned on the film soundtrack (i forget the song but its a romantic cliche), and whistled and waved at us holding each other, giving us the thumbs up, which i returned with a smile, and we bashfully hurried away down the road. next to us was an empty enclosed parking lot which remained untouched, so we stepped in and walked, leaving our footprints behind us. and i held her and asked for a dance, which she smiled at and we did, very briefly, until we realised the slight cheesiness of it all, and resorted to embracing instead. and, in the middle of this empty snow white space, she turned up, and i looked down at her, and we kissed lightly. we walked back, and as we did, she said my name, i looked at her, and she smiled that wonderful smile of hers, and said 'i love you', and my heart melted. we returned to her place, had dinner, and then i stayed with her until she fell asleep, before returning home. and that brings me here.

so that is another top day to rank among the rest. by the rest i mean every day spent in her company, every day contributing to the best time of my life. looking forward to the next

note: charlotte said yesterday, after watching casanova, that she thinks women dont like a guy who is too perfect or else they feel they can't get into his mind, they just want someone who is very good but not too much. and also, she said that girls HATE to hear that they are the guy's first love, and that they have never loved before. is this true??

edit: today (the day after the post above), i sent her a txt in the morning to say that last night was heavenly and i had spent the night with an angel. she replied saying that she would never forget the night she walked on white snow with her prince. soppy, but i wore a soppy smile to match for the rest of the morning. i think recently i've been more open towards her about my feelings and more unpredictable, sending her txts, flowers and gifts, and we are surely closer than ever now. and it feels amazing. i really cant think of how things could realistically be better (things with jughead and guys hitting on her are to an extent either circumstance or the fact men adore her). we've spent literally every day for weeks together and yet every day brings something new, something to look forward to. i cant wait for tomorrow

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#179 Post by silvermoon » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:13 am

ok, we're gonna need to find another name for jughead...

last night she dropped a bit of a bombshell. not a bit, a huge bombshell. atomic proportions. last night, we talked over dinner, and i asked her about jughead. i asked because recently we've taken huge steps with each other, planning to move in together, making love for the first time, going to her home country with her to meet her parents in the summer. and i realised that there was only one thing left on my mind that had been left unresolved, something i had avoided. so i asked about jughead. how did you meet? what did you get up to? so she told me everything, and i listened and smiled. because the person she described seemed a wonderful friend, at odds with the person i thought i knew. and she talked about everything regarding him, how she spent a lot of time with him, became close, came to england with him. she described a friend to me.

and then i asked her about something she had told me before. she told me she had kissed him, just days before i had met her. and i had told her at the time it didnt bother me one bit because everyone has a life before you meet them. but she had told me recently that she thought jughead had referred to her as his girlfriend, and i wondered why. all this time i had thought jughead was trying to hang onto her, being unreasonable, desperate. so i asked her, how did you come to kiss him that time? she wondered why i was asking her this now. and i said that i wanted to know why jughead would claim she was his girlfriend, and what their relationship meant for her to kiss him. for the whole time i had known her, he had always been in the background. the first two weeks i had known her, i said, she had already had to talk to him about me, because he had said he was jealous of me. one of the first posts i wrote on this thread, i described how i sat outside for 15mins, helpless while she talked to jughead about our collective futures. why would she need to do all this if he was 'just a friend'? either he was being unreasonable...or she was leading him on. she looked down at her beer, sighed, and opened her mouth to speak.

that night, i went to break up with him.

my eyes bulged, my face turned red and hot, and i just sat there.

how long were you with him for, i asked eventually. two weeks, she said. i thought for a short while, then asked, how much of this time overlapped with the time you were with me? just under two weeks, she replied. i thought some more, then said, omg...you kissed me when you were still with him...she looked at her drink and took a gulp.

it wouldnt have worked with him, because of his personality, she said. i sat there. how often do you speak to him since he left? every two days. i didnt want to talk to you about him. i sat there. you dont have to worry about him, he probably wont be coming back. silence.

everything clicked. jughead wasnt unreasonable. he was hardly an innocent, but then there are no innocents in this. he was being played. and i felt horrible.

and then it happened. i've made countless mistakes, but everything that had happened recently played on my mind, and i didnt think. i just said, ok. and i said, i love you, thank you for telling me, i appreciate your honesty. and all the while, i thought to myself, we've been through so much, can you forget something from the past? can it be forgiven? in that moment, i thought yes. and i thought, she loves me back, i know it, and she never loved jughead like this, i know that too. and holding her tight, and her holding me back, i felt how passionate she can be, and how callous. and she told me, if she changes her mind about someone, she will be selfish about it. being callous is within her nature. i said that, having seen our behaviour towards each other recently, i felt we had become serious, very serious, and i needed to know things, to clear all obstacles. she asked me why. and then we were interrupted by a phonecall, and the conversation trailed off after. i stayed with her in the night, and hugged her tighter than ever. but i couldnt sleep. the next morning, i stood in the shower for half an hr maybe, head down, and i came out and had breakfast with her and left. and since she told me, i havnt thought of anything else.

does it mean anything now? can it be forgiven? she loves me, im sure of that. i love her. what does this mean? she has done so much for me recently, and vice versa. is this something i should take seriously? it doesnt mean the same thing now as when it happened. what should i do? and above all....would she do the same thing to me? my head says no, as does my heart...but i dont know. i just dont know what to make of it.

edit: after finding out about her infidelity, we need to find another name for jughead. something far far far more intense. something that hell wouldnt accept.
Last edited by silvermoon on Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#180 Post by silvermoon » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:41 am

she cheated on me with jughead. she slept with him. i know because i found pictures of her posing, in the same thing she wore on valentines day with me, on her computer. then in the nude. then lying next to him. and smiling. and then she confessed she had slept with him. she slept with him in december. 8 weeks after i had first been with her. 6 weeks after she had broken up with him. 4 weeks after i had said i loved her. and she loved me.

it looks like a nice fancy hotel room. must have cost a mint. he set up everything, she says. and she went along with it all. with a smile on her face. she lied to me. she said she was with friends that time. she lied to her sister.

i told her i had spoken to people about us. everyone warned me about her. and jughead. and i said i told myself i could trust her. i ignored everyone because i thought i could trust her. i lied to myself to be with her.

she tells me they did it to 'say goodbye'. she tells me she's sorry. she tells me things were complicated. she tells me she loves me. and i laughed. and said i was stupid. and she didnt deserve someone like me. and said i was the best thing to ever happen to her. and the best thing to ever happen to her was walking away. she chased me down the street, and i ran. and i cried. she called me and i cried. and said i gave her everything. was prepared to spend my life with her. loved her.

how could you?

she came to my place after, and we talked for many hrs. and finally, i said 'i still love you'. and i forgive you. but i need to do one thing. i need to see the pictures again. i cant just ignore it. i'll either confront it and prevail, or fail. if i can get over it, i truly love you. if not, i'm not the one you want. she refused, but we went in the end. i looked through the pictures again, saw the smile on her face, her eyes looking at him, cuddling up to him, wearing the see-through dress he had bought her, the one she wore for me...she undressed for him, and smiled the whole time. and not a hint of regret, or hesitation. this was what 8 weeks of my life had been building up to.

i left, then went back to say 'i came back to end this'. and she tried to hug me, and i held her away, and said i gave you everything, did my best, and you did the worst thing of all. you and jughead deserve each other. and you dont deserve me. she hugged me 'for the last time'. i turned to leave, and she said you cant leave because you still love me, and you'll regret it. and i said i know i would, but i got into this to risk everything. i just never thought i'd lose it all. i turned to her, with her eyes closed, not wanting to see me leave, kissed her on the cheek, and left. see you around.
Last edited by silvermoon on Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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